TargetTalk

I see cheaper cartridges for training as a good option.

So I like the labeling principle based on quality presented in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7nH1BBUSp4

With this in mind, you don't have to think much about difference in POI or feedback.
Nice to know that this exists for Eley and Lapua.

Can you please let me know if you can think of a good combination?

Cartridges with minimal differences in specification (both at same speed at least for example) are also very welcome to know about.
For example, price variation due to cheaper machines, place of manufacturing, bigger margins, the composition of the lead, copper or grease/oil.

Unless you are shooting at a VERY high level, and something like 50 meter free pistol, you will probably not notice the difference when shooting pistol. Your wobble is MUCH larger than the accuracy limitations of the ammo. Rifle is very different.

Also, most velocity specs on .22 ammo are in a rifle barrel, and are meaningless if you shoot pistol, unless it is specifically pistol ammunition. You can shoot relatively inexpensive ammunition for practice AND matches until you get very proficient. If shooting more expensive ammo in matches makes you feel better, that's fine too, but don't fool yourself that it will magically make your scores go up.

No, I don't expect magic. Just looking for potentially good options to pick one out.

For pistol shooting the cartridge is less important. Perhaps because of that that options are a bit blurred.

Assuming it probably does not matter is not something that fits in the context of trying to do best I think.
I see advantage in just using one cartridge.

But I see more advantage in shooting with cheap(er) cartridge for training.
And go for safe and pay more for quality in matches.

I think this is a great example (with not even an extreme difference in price):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-_pxtRVdbg&t=812s

While shooting costs money, trying to get the best out of it (putting very much money and time in it).
Investing in above mediocre cartridges only for matches does not hurt my conscience.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.
Suggestions for a good combi for training and matches with somehow similar characteristics are still welcome.

A lot depends on what kind of shooting your are doing, and with what equipment. Free pistol is very different from Sport, Rapid or Standard Pistol.

You can go out and spend $50 a box on the "best" ammo out there, but if it won't cycle your semi-auto reliably, it's worthless. I have had expensive ammo that fouls the chamber of my free pistol to the point where I have to stop a couple times mid-match to brush out my chamber. No thanks...

"Accuracy" is actually one of the last things I worry about with ammo. Almost any good brand of modern ammo will shoot well enough that I don't worry about "practice" vs "match".

Other things to deal with when selecting .22 rimfire ammunition: Some ammo has a thin hard wax lubricant that makes it easy to handle cleanly. Other ammo has heavy grease (Russian ammo is the worst...), and you need to bring a towel to the firing line to keep the grease from getting on everything. The grease also accumulates in the pistol, and requires cleaning more often, as does ammo that burns dirtier (or less completely) than others. Some brands tend to have more lot-to-lot variation, and you have to be concerned every time you buy a new batch as to whether it's going to work well or not. The priming in some brands isn't as reliable as others. If they don't replace their brass forming dies often enough, I've run into ammo that was fine for a while, and the next batch was so oversized it wouldn't chamber in free pistols.

Over the course of shooting competitively for about 55 years, I have abandoned most US made ammunition (Remington, Federal, CCI, Winchester) due to problems that come and go. I've found Aguila ammunition to be inexpensive, accurate in all my pistols, and exceedingly reliable. The only exception is my free pistol. Despite the handling issues with the greasy lubricant, Norma TAC-22 allows me to get through a full match without cleaning my chamber. It is also relatively inexpensive. I've shot various grades of RWS, Eley, Lapua, SK, etc., and for the most part they work fine, but I can get identical performance from Aguila for a lot less money.

Everyone seems to think Eley is the "gold standard". Maybe if you buy nothing but Tenex, but I can't afford that. I know lots of people in recent years that have had issues with their lower grades. I had a batch of "Target" a while back where they had misadjusted their crimping dies. The result was fine brass shavings all over the inside of my pistol. I sent them photos, and they didn't even apologize. The response I got was basically "Yeah, that can happen."

The shooting I do at the moment is only with a semi automatic sport pistol. I have ambition for free pistol in the future, although that's too far for me for playing a role in cartridge choice at this moment.

I bought 2 boxes of Tenex (with 50pcs) almost a year ago and those are still in the closet.
CCI does not go with my pistol (there are way too much jams at cartridge ejection).
But, I have shot a lot of RWS and SK.

Dirt is not really an issue for me. I think I could easily go over 1200 rounds without problems with my pistol shooting SK Pistol Match or RWS Pistol Match.
If price would not be an issue, the RWS Pistol Match would be my reference point for traning and matches.
I would like to shoot my trainings cheaper than with RWS Pistol Match.
I've seen a lot of misfires with Aguila from neighbours at the shooting range. Probably it has more to do with the revolvers and pistols from the clubs, but the lower price does not motivate me enough.

When it comes to potential training and match combinations I can think of (only none specific pistol line cartridges based on website info) :

RWS Club (for training) with RWS Special Match or R50 (for match)
Eley Sport (for training) with Eley Team, Match or Tenex (for match)

Between my wife's and own shooting, plus 15 years of coaching a college team that shoots a LOT of Aguila, I've only encountered 2 misfires in over 100,000 rounds. Even then, I didn't have a chance to determine if it was the pistol or the ammo. The vast majority of semi-auto misfires are caused by a dirty chamber:

viewtopic.php?p=326441#p326441

If you find ammo that works reliably with your pistol, you're better off using that than mixing brands and risking a failure during a match. When you're actually in a competition, that's the last place where you want to include new or uncommon variables.

Semi auto rimfire guns - pistols and rifles as well - are picky about ammo. Find anything that is not dirt cheap (because then it really might be crappy, with one lot much different than another), not too powerful (not to put too much stress on the gun), works reliably and does not cost an arm and a leg.
Do not be overly afraid of the amount of grease. If you' believe it really may affect reliablity, it's usually easy to wash (or just wipe) it off before shooting. If this ammo is cheap enough and works for you, it's probably worth the hassle.

Well, I was asking about a combination for cartridges. One for training and one for matches.
But, could be that not many people make a habit out of this.

Of course, I'm also interested in other rimfire facts.

rokada wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:37 pm not too powerful (not to put too much stress on the gun)

@rokada
Until today I don't see my pistol as picky, but can you please make this statement a bit more clear (for me)?
Do you say that general rimfire could be harmful for match pistols?
Or did you mean high velocity rimfire?
Hopefully you have a concrete example.

All the high end competition pistols I know of were designed for "standard" velocity .22 LR ammunition. If you shoot "high velocity" ammo, it will just put additional wear & tear on the pistol. Also, depending on the competition you are planning on shooting, the extra recoil will NOT help your scores.

There are some pistols that only seem to cycle well with high velocity ammo. That's a pistol problem, not an ammo issue. I had a brand new Smith & Wesson Model 41 early on that was like that. I got rid of it fairly quickly. Now that I am older & wiser, I could probably have fixed it, but there are plenty of pistols that don't have that problem.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 1:16 pm Between my wife's and own shooting, plus 15 years of coaching a college team that shoots a LOT of Aguila, I've only encountered 2 misfires in over 100,000 rounds. Even then, I didn't have a chance to determine if it was the pistol or the ammo. The vast majority of semi-auto misfires are caused by a dirty chamber:

viewtopic.php?p=326441#p326441

Hi Master~ Does Aguila work fine with Matchgun MG2? Which Aguila .22 is to be chosen? Target competition or pistol match competition? Thanks.

I use the standard velocity 40 grain Aguila in my MG2's. I've never seen any reason to pay extra for "pistol" or "match" ammo. The regular stuff shoots just fine.

Cool~ I’ll give it a try~~~ thank you master.

I am not sure if rokada will come back to this subject.
But I like the way the discussion is/was moving.

@Gwhite, can you please say how you think about pistol labeled rimfire in general?
I would love to know more about the pistol versus standard cartridges of the same brand (in general).

If I am right, pistol cartridges are mostly advertised as being softer, giving less feedback etcetera.

The twist rate of match pistols must be chosen with a specific speed in mind.
The speed of general standard rimfire cartridges, or the speed of the softer pistol cartridges?

Perhaps the difference in speed is too insignificant.
Or, could it be that the difference in speed is enough to make a difference in stability?
In case this difference is more theoretical and perhaps only noticable with a ransom rest or a vice, this would be useful information I think.

I was told that rifle and pistol cartridges use different powder. Rifles using "slower burning" powder since the projectile spends more time in the long barrel and you don't need to front load all the acceleration in the first 10cm.

I expect that a slightly faster burning powder might be used in ammo that is specifically "pistol" ammunition. As a practical matter, I don't think it makes much difference. It's possible "pistol" ammo might burn a little cleaner than "rifle" ammo when fired in a short barrel. I've been shooting competitively for over 50 years. When I started, there wasn't any "pistol" ammo available, and I couldn't have afforded it if there was. I have always shot regular standard velocity ammunition, which is undoubtedly "rifle" ammunition, because that's what (as a guess) over 90% of the market will use it for.

I don't believe there is a significant difference in the twist rate required to get good accuracy between the two ammo types. People get all cranked up about "accuracy", but firing a pistol with one hand is sufficiently inaccurate that you are very unlikely to ever notice any difference, with the possible exception of free pistol. For semi-autos, you will lose a LOT more points if you ammo doesn't cycle the pistol reliably than if the groups from a rest are a millimeter larger with one ammo than another.

breadfan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 pm Well, I was asking about a combination for cartridges. One for training and one for matches.
But, could be that not many people make a habit out of this.

IMHO people usually don't do that and it's considered a non-recommended practise because if one ammo type is not almost exactly like the other one it violates the basic rule "competition and training should be as similar as possible".

breadfan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 pm Until today I don't see my pistol as picky, but can you please make this statement a bit more clear (for me)?
[...]
Hopefully you have a concrete example.

My SW41 is kinda picky - there is about 2 to 5 chance it will misfire if I use one particular brand of ammo. And this ammo - cartridges from the same box - is fine in my other rimfire pistols.

breadfan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 pm Do you say that general rimfire could be harmful for match pistols?
Or did you mean high velocity rimfire?

The latter. Maybe I'm too much into "better safe than sorry" attitude, but I wouldn't use HV ammo unless the manual explicitly states that HV cartridges may be used.

And I generally agree with all that Gwhite wrote about different kinds of cartridges fired from a semi auto pistol.

Thanks rokada and Gwhite for the feedback!