TargetTalk

Hello all,

I have been shooting BE for a long time, but as a duffer looking to have fun as opposed to winning the National Championship. Having said that, I hope to acquire a new Rock River Arms wad gun with their 1.5" guarantee later this year.

I cannot afford to buy the commercial ammo with which they test their guns, so I am looking for advice on testing my reloads to obtain the best possible performance with the new gun at the long line. I have loaded for the .45 for decades and have done some testing, but I suspect my test protocol is statistically meaningless.

I have several kinds of bullets and powders on hand that are suitable for lighter BE loads. I've also bought 1K of new Starline brass for this exercise. So I wonder how finicky I must be to REALLY find the best possible load for a new gun. I don't have a Ransom Rest, so testing will be done from the bench with an adjustable rest and sand bags. How many rounds of each possible combination of bullet and powder should I test to make a sound statistical choice?

Must I chronograph the loads? Should I depend solely on group sizes? Should I shoot at 25 yards, or exclusively at 50? And so on.

I really don't want to take a deep dive into the weeds as that could involve literally dozens (hundreds?) of test loads to make a choice. Or must I go down that path?

Thanks in advance for educating me.

Dennis, aka Dulcmrman

This is how Pat Sweeney recommends going about it:
https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/h ... ing/374315

(I'm far too moderate a shooter myself to have anything to add to this.)

Good luck!
John

First off you can spends months and years trying to find THE BEST! load for your gun. If you enjoy that sort of thing, great, go for it. For most shooters finding a decent load and practicing / training will improve scores more.

IMO Your best bet is to start with a few standard loads and see what shoots well. You don't list your classification, but if you can get groups in the 3-4" range that is probably good enough. Even a 6" gun is good enough for most shooters. I'll probably get some flack for that, but I stand by it. If the gun-ammo combination shoots groups around 4" that means that most shots at 50yds will be within 1" or so of your call, some will be 2" away and occasionally you will get a flyer that is 2.5-3" away. Can you call your shots within 1-2" consistently?

If possible shoot your groups at 50 yards. For the most part groups at 50 are about twice the size of 25 yd loads, but occasional a load will be worse at 50 yds, especially when trying light loads. It's easier to see smaller differences at 50 yds due to the larger overall group

You can get good feedback shooting off a rest, sometimes better than a Ransom Rest. The main advantage of the RR is it doesn't get tired. You probably don't want to shoot too many groups in one session. Even with a RR shooting and measuring groups all day gets pretty boring.

The link above offers some pretty good suggestions. I have a RR, but usually just want a quick check to make sure everything is good so I shoot a group or two from a rest. I shoot two handed, sitting, square to the target, with both feet flat on the ground if possible. For a 1911, I rest the trigger guard on something (sandbag or towel wrapped around a dowel) and the base of my hands under the grip on the bench or a flat surface. A few spacers of different thickness under my hands or the sandbag gets the alignment close to the target height. I make fine adjustments in elevation by pushing the gun slightly forward or back and by slightly increasing the pressure between my hands which squeezes the the flesh under the bottom of the grip and raises or lowers the back of the gun.

If you tell us what bullets and powders you have we can make some recommendations. Here are a few I've collected over the years

Nosler or Zero 185JHP Bullet, OAL around 1.2"
4-4.4gr VV N310
4-4.2 Bullseye
4.5-4.7 WST
4.7-4.8 S1000

Zero 185 LSWCHP Bullet, OAL around 1.22"
3.8gr Clays
4.0 VV N310
3.8 WST
4.2 S1000
3.7 Bullseye (almost anything 3.5-4gr)

Steve T's stuff looks good.

I would start with the lead bullets (cheaper), and Bullseye (been used in the .45 for over 100 years).

Two inch groups at 50yds. would be GREAT!

Thank you for the great suggestions! Regarding bullets, I have the following:

Nosler 185gr JHP
Zero 185gr SWCHP (swaged lead)
Zero 185gr SWC (swaged button nose)
Brazos 180gr coated flat base SWC
Various hard cast H&G68 shape both 185gr and 200gr

I also have the following powders:

Bullseye
W231
VVN310
Titewad
Titegroup

BTW, I hold an expert card but at 76 I shoot expert scores with the .22, but seldom with the 1911. I'm hoping to change that, but who knows.

Again, thanks for the good info.

Dennis, aka dulcmrman

Something I forgot to mention: headspace and crimping.

Invariably .45 cases are erratic in length. The .45 is supposed to headspace on the case mouth but doesn't. Some claim that the cartridge will headspace on the extractor. I'm dubious.

The answer is to headspace on the bullet and use a roll crimp. Some say no-no. Find out for yourself.

Most bullseye shooters are using a taper crimp for 45. The Lee Factory Crimp die is particularly well regarded.

Years ago I tested different (taper) crimps. I couldn't see a significant difference between no crimp and crimp that put a small indentation in the lead swaged (soft) bullet. Others claim it won't be accurate if it damages the bullet so your mileage may vary.

Oh yeah, I shoot the same charge for 185 and 200gr lead bullets. I see a small difference in velocity depending on bullet weight, but no difference in accuracy or POI as long as both bullets are the same quality. This has been with Star and Zero 185 HP, SWC and 200 SWC.

A chrono is not necessary for pistol reloading. It can be useful if you are trying to use the same bullet with a different powder, getting the same velocity will likely perform similarly... but not always. In general 45 is pretty forgiving and 50 yds is not that far so velocity and SD will not tell you if a load is accurate. Only results on target will tell you that.

Once again, thanks for the advice. It looks like I have a fair amount of work ahead of me.

I have 1K of new Starline brass that I plan to segregate by length. I've never had brass that comes close to SAMMI max length, but I believe that consistent lengths will contribute to consistent crimps.

I may post again after testing to close the loop on my process and results.

Dennis, aka Dulcmrman

dulcmr-man wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 9:50 am I have 1K of new Starline brass that I plan to segregate by length.

I would trimmed them all to the same length instead.
Same (+/-) work, and they will be all the same.

Regarding trimming .45 ACP brass; I have never trimmed brass. I try to shoot only one brand of case at 50 yards and once fired if possible. But, it really doesn’t seem to matter that much.
My gun will shoot 2” at 50 yards, 3.8 grains of Bullseye powder, 200 grain Zero SWC.

"I have 1K of new Starline brass that I plan to segregate by length." Dulcmrman

Will you just STOP with that time-wasting crap! The only reason to do that is to head-space uniformly on the case mouth. Buddy, it ain't gonna happen!