Pardini Rapid Fire pistol
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jawedumer
Pardini Rapid Fire pistol
The pardini Rapid Fire is a wonderful pistol, with very little recoil, due to changes inside the barrel, but these come at a cost, the accuracy is somewhat reduced. Since the Rapid Fire Target has a ten ring of 100 mm diametre it is of little consequence, but the same gun cannot be used for high scores on the standard pistol target which has only a 50 mm ten ring. In view of the high price of the Pardini I have suggested them to make two barrels, one for each discipline. This way the same gun can be used by switching barrels
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Post Subject
Match Guns had some early development and design problems but now seems to have solved most of them.Stefano C. of MG, has single handedly helped solve these problems and enhance customer service-a great solver of problems. I hope the twist on the MG-4 will stabilize bullets at 50 yds so that it will become a great BE shooting option.
Last edited by Ernie Rodriguez on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
I don't agree with that. So far Matchguns is the one company that seems to talk and to listen to all of their customers. Despite having had a bad start, they made a strong comeback, and you can only offer good customer service when you're listening to your customers. Pardini and Morini (and Hammerli, and Walther, btw, but I haven't bought a pistol from them in ages) have shown in the past that they don't really care about their paying customers. Upgrades and special parts - even if they would have been decisive for somebody to buy the gun, such as a smaller electronic for the 84E - have only been available for the top shooters. Just remember the Pardini e-trigger fiasco, when everybody except those who had paid for their pistols got new electronics. I agree that the beginning of Matchguns was suboptimal, but that's a price that every other company in the business has paid for a new model, and looking and the MG4, I stipulate that it won't happen to them again.
Hello members,
Jawedumer wrote:
"Pardini Rapid Fire is a wonderful pistol, with very little recoil, due to changes inside the barrel, but these come at a cost, the accuracy is somewhat reduced".
The SP-RF & SP1-RF have 6 tungsten rod weights to add more weight to the front of the gun...They actually increase the front weight of the RF gun 30-50 grams depending on whether it is a SP or an SP1… The regular gun has the same 6 rods but made out of steel.
The second difference is that the slide in the RF is a little lighter in order to make the action faster...
I don't think that there are any changes inside the barrel...Why would Pardini or any company would have to change the inside of a barrel for RF?
The barrel (plain barrel with no attachments) has a chamber, a twist rate and certain number of lands and changing these variables in no way will improve RF shooting...So…Why change it?
It is a fact that the barrels for the SP and SP-RF are made from the same steel and have the same thickness (similar weight)....
You can buy the tungsten rods from the SP-RF and use them in a regular SP or SP1 and then the only difference would be the lighter slide in the RF.
I may be missing something, what makes you think that these 2 changes or differences mentioned above will make the RF gun less accurate compared to a regular SP or SP1?
Best Regards,
AZUARO
Jawedumer wrote:
"Pardini Rapid Fire is a wonderful pistol, with very little recoil, due to changes inside the barrel, but these come at a cost, the accuracy is somewhat reduced".
The SP-RF & SP1-RF have 6 tungsten rod weights to add more weight to the front of the gun...They actually increase the front weight of the RF gun 30-50 grams depending on whether it is a SP or an SP1… The regular gun has the same 6 rods but made out of steel.
The second difference is that the slide in the RF is a little lighter in order to make the action faster...
I don't think that there are any changes inside the barrel...Why would Pardini or any company would have to change the inside of a barrel for RF?
The barrel (plain barrel with no attachments) has a chamber, a twist rate and certain number of lands and changing these variables in no way will improve RF shooting...So…Why change it?
It is a fact that the barrels for the SP and SP-RF are made from the same steel and have the same thickness (similar weight)....
You can buy the tungsten rods from the SP-RF and use them in a regular SP or SP1 and then the only difference would be the lighter slide in the RF.
I may be missing something, what makes you think that these 2 changes or differences mentioned above will make the RF gun less accurate compared to a regular SP or SP1?
Best Regards,
AZUARO
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Ralf
Hello members,
Pardini definitely says that there are “changes to the bolt and barrel” but Pardini considers the front part of the pistol just ahead of the barrel as part of the barrel itself even though this is part of the recoil reduction system.
I visited a dealer in Spain and saw both guns; he assured me that the differences were two: The front part of the barrel (6 TUNGSTEN weights & springs) and a lighter slide. The expensive part is the slide...
This dealer (he shoots a Pardini SP1) had a "RF kit" for the SP new on display and it consisted of 6 tungsten weights with 6 springs and a lighter slide all packed in a Pardini box...So I will assume that this is something that the factory offers to shooters competing in both disciplines with the same gun.
The dealer told me that the weights, springs and slide for the SP New were also available for whoever had a RF pistol and wanted to convert it to a regular SP new but that this situation was not as common (we all understand this statement).
Anschutz has back bored and tapered their small bore rifles with some success, but for that technique to really work you need a longer barrel. The SP barrel is only 4.72 inches (120 mm) long including chamber.
I have not been very successful in getting answers from the only US Pardini importer, I understand that Larry is extremely busy running his shop and has very little time for answering questions from customers and Amanda is on an undetermined leave…
Anybody knows who can assist us with Pardini matters?
Best Regards,
AZUARO
Pardini definitely says that there are “changes to the bolt and barrel” but Pardini considers the front part of the pistol just ahead of the barrel as part of the barrel itself even though this is part of the recoil reduction system.
I visited a dealer in Spain and saw both guns; he assured me that the differences were two: The front part of the barrel (6 TUNGSTEN weights & springs) and a lighter slide. The expensive part is the slide...
This dealer (he shoots a Pardini SP1) had a "RF kit" for the SP new on display and it consisted of 6 tungsten weights with 6 springs and a lighter slide all packed in a Pardini box...So I will assume that this is something that the factory offers to shooters competing in both disciplines with the same gun.
The dealer told me that the weights, springs and slide for the SP New were also available for whoever had a RF pistol and wanted to convert it to a regular SP new but that this situation was not as common (we all understand this statement).
Anschutz has back bored and tapered their small bore rifles with some success, but for that technique to really work you need a longer barrel. The SP barrel is only 4.72 inches (120 mm) long including chamber.
I have not been very successful in getting answers from the only US Pardini importer, I understand that Larry is extremely busy running his shop and has very little time for answering questions from customers and Amanda is on an undetermined leave…
Anybody knows who can assist us with Pardini matters?
Best Regards,
AZUARO
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Brian James
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
I have both
I own and shoot both an SP New and an SP Rapid Fire.
I was told that the RF version might be a little less accurate than the Standard Pistol version. The dealer, Larry Carter, theorized that the chamber on the RF was not as tight, to facilitate feeding.
Curious, I installed an Aimpoint on the RF, and tested it's accuracy over sandbags, and compared it to my results with the SP (I also use the SP for Bullseye.)
There was no meaningful difference between them at 25Yds.
Your results may vary, as they say.
I was told that the RF version might be a little less accurate than the Standard Pistol version. The dealer, Larry Carter, theorized that the chamber on the RF was not as tight, to facilitate feeding.
Curious, I installed an Aimpoint on the RF, and tested it's accuracy over sandbags, and compared it to my results with the SP (I also use the SP for Bullseye.)
There was no meaningful difference between them at 25Yds.
Your results may vary, as they say.
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
SP New and RF
Great info Scott-any noticeable difference in shot recovery/recoil between the SP new and the SP Rapid Fire??
Hello Members,
Dealers are sellers marketing a product and are not necessarily gurus, the best of technicians, or the Bible. When they don't have an answer there is always speculation, even reputable dealers do this...
The cycle rate in the SP is fast enough for shooting rapid Fire without any problems…If a chamber is very tight, it will jam either gun (SP or SP-RF) so I don’t believe that this argument about a less tight chamber in the RF is valid.
The lighter slide in the RF is for increasing the cycle velocity so the shooter has more time for recuperating from the kick…For example: If the lighter slide makes the cycle 30% faster, then the shooter has 30% more time for recuperating from the previous shoot.
The RF has more weight in the front (6 TUNGSTEN weights) because a lighter slide will make the gun kick harder and upwards…More weight at the very front part of the gun will compensate for this effect.
This extra weight will make the gun "Nose Heavy" and some shooter's don't like this kind of balance in a rapid fire pistol. I am one of them...
The barrel (Barrel with no attachments) in all four guns: SP & SP-1 new and SP-RF & SP1-RF has the very same part number: 702-1
The difference between the SP and SP-RF?
LIGHTER SLIDE, TUNGSTEN WEIGHTS & SPRINGS…And the “1” is for the Electronic Trigger in either model…
For an empirical research about accuracy we would have to test both gun models in a Ransom machine with the same ammo (weighted and selected by rim thickness for a consistent head space) and even then, we would need to try several guns of the same model for having an acceptable statistical value; no two identical guns shoot the same and data from one pistol of each model has no statistical significance (doesn't tell us anything)
I am an engineer and have built and experimented with many rifles, pistols and shotgus in many calibers, I have the Ransom machine BUT I DON’T HAVE A PARDINI !!....Not yet....
Brian, I will follow your advice and will contact Pardini directly...Thanks!
Best regards,
AZUARO
Dealers are sellers marketing a product and are not necessarily gurus, the best of technicians, or the Bible. When they don't have an answer there is always speculation, even reputable dealers do this...
The cycle rate in the SP is fast enough for shooting rapid Fire without any problems…If a chamber is very tight, it will jam either gun (SP or SP-RF) so I don’t believe that this argument about a less tight chamber in the RF is valid.
The lighter slide in the RF is for increasing the cycle velocity so the shooter has more time for recuperating from the kick…For example: If the lighter slide makes the cycle 30% faster, then the shooter has 30% more time for recuperating from the previous shoot.
The RF has more weight in the front (6 TUNGSTEN weights) because a lighter slide will make the gun kick harder and upwards…More weight at the very front part of the gun will compensate for this effect.
This extra weight will make the gun "Nose Heavy" and some shooter's don't like this kind of balance in a rapid fire pistol. I am one of them...
The barrel (Barrel with no attachments) in all four guns: SP & SP-1 new and SP-RF & SP1-RF has the very same part number: 702-1
The difference between the SP and SP-RF?
LIGHTER SLIDE, TUNGSTEN WEIGHTS & SPRINGS…And the “1” is for the Electronic Trigger in either model…
For an empirical research about accuracy we would have to test both gun models in a Ransom machine with the same ammo (weighted and selected by rim thickness for a consistent head space) and even then, we would need to try several guns of the same model for having an acceptable statistical value; no two identical guns shoot the same and data from one pistol of each model has no statistical significance (doesn't tell us anything)
I am an engineer and have built and experimented with many rifles, pistols and shotgus in many calibers, I have the Ransom machine BUT I DON’T HAVE A PARDINI !!....Not yet....
Brian, I will follow your advice and will contact Pardini directly...Thanks!
Best regards,
AZUARO
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dhurt
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jawedumer
Pardini Rapidfire pistol
Dear all,
I wrote to Pardini and they told me the standard pistol model would group within 12 to 13 mm at 25m with good ammo, and the rapid fire model would group within 30mm with the same ammo as the Rapid Fire pistols barrel/chamber was configured to give least recoil and the 10 ring of the Rapid target bieng 100mm it does make a lot of sense
I wrote to Pardini and they told me the standard pistol model would group within 12 to 13 mm at 25m with good ammo, and the rapid fire model would group within 30mm with the same ammo as the Rapid Fire pistols barrel/chamber was configured to give least recoil and the 10 ring of the Rapid target bieng 100mm it does make a lot of sense
Jawedumer,
In 45 years of shooting top brands of pistols, rifles and shotguns, I have never seen any High End Gun Manufacturer compromising about the groups that their guns shoot or will shoot....They usually only provide you with a test target.
You must be very well connected with Pardini for getting such a precise and compromising answer (12-13 mm for the SP and 30 mm for the SP-RF version at 25 meters with good ammo)
Will you please “copy and paste” the email that you received from Pardini?
You also seem to insist in your initial claim that the RF model has a larger bore for less recoil and a sloppy chamber for faster feeding, and supposedly Pardini told you that...Well, such an answer insults the intelligence of many shooters in this forum…
Let me be more specific:
I am a mechanical engineer who has built, experimented and re-barreled many and I mean many rifles and pistols… I totally disagree with your statements, especially when we are talking about a .22 RF pistol that has a 4.72 inch long barrel.
A larger bore for dissipating gases for less recoil doesn’t work efficiently in a .22 RF or in any other caliber other than to some extent, in shotguns...But remember that shotguns have a CHOKE AT THE END OF THE BARREL and do not shoot for accuracy or for groups at 25 or 50 meters. The purpose of back-boring shotguns is mainly for improving the pattern given the less initial push and deformation of the pellets by releasing and controlling used and unused pressure…This also contributes to reducing the felt recoil.
The .22 RF bullets are made of very soft lead (all brands of ammo) and the bullet will conform (fill in) to the grooves and lands of the barrel after the initial push of the gases at pretty much any .22 RF cartridge velocity…
Then you would have that the volume of gases released before the bullet exits the barrel (in an over-bored barrel) would create such a turbulence and disruption in the bullet (yaw) that the accuracy of any gun would be totally destroyed without gaining much grounds in reducing the kick or felt recoil…So why do it?
Ported barrels release most gases and pressure BEHIND the bullet and BEFORE the bullet leaves the barrel without causing any disruption as the projectile exits the barrel…Ported barrels are not allowed in SP or in RF.
Some factors that determine the accuracy of a barrel are:
The overall consistency (measurement) of the bore, the smoothness of the grooves and lands over its entire length, the selection of the SLOWEST twist rate that will stabilize the bullet to be used, the appropriate selection of a Match Chamber and a good crown are probably the most important ones…For a Pardini, a BENTZ or similar Match Chamber is most likely used…
BENTZ chambers can effectively be used in machine guns without any feeding problems, so an assumption that for Rapid Fire shooting with a semi-auto pistol a SLOPPY CHAMBER (for trouble free and fast feeding) is needed, results in not an intelligent assumption or a credible answer…
I am sure that Pardini knows all this mentioned above and much more, and I am sure that neither a sloppy chamber for faster feeding or an over-bored barrel for less recoil ARE USED in the SP-RF or in any other guns that they manufacture.
Maybe somebody pulled your leg …or…Maybe you are trying to pull ours!!
Best regards for all members,
AZUARO
In 45 years of shooting top brands of pistols, rifles and shotguns, I have never seen any High End Gun Manufacturer compromising about the groups that their guns shoot or will shoot....They usually only provide you with a test target.
You must be very well connected with Pardini for getting such a precise and compromising answer (12-13 mm for the SP and 30 mm for the SP-RF version at 25 meters with good ammo)
Will you please “copy and paste” the email that you received from Pardini?
You also seem to insist in your initial claim that the RF model has a larger bore for less recoil and a sloppy chamber for faster feeding, and supposedly Pardini told you that...Well, such an answer insults the intelligence of many shooters in this forum…
Let me be more specific:
I am a mechanical engineer who has built, experimented and re-barreled many and I mean many rifles and pistols… I totally disagree with your statements, especially when we are talking about a .22 RF pistol that has a 4.72 inch long barrel.
A larger bore for dissipating gases for less recoil doesn’t work efficiently in a .22 RF or in any other caliber other than to some extent, in shotguns...But remember that shotguns have a CHOKE AT THE END OF THE BARREL and do not shoot for accuracy or for groups at 25 or 50 meters. The purpose of back-boring shotguns is mainly for improving the pattern given the less initial push and deformation of the pellets by releasing and controlling used and unused pressure…This also contributes to reducing the felt recoil.
The .22 RF bullets are made of very soft lead (all brands of ammo) and the bullet will conform (fill in) to the grooves and lands of the barrel after the initial push of the gases at pretty much any .22 RF cartridge velocity…
Then you would have that the volume of gases released before the bullet exits the barrel (in an over-bored barrel) would create such a turbulence and disruption in the bullet (yaw) that the accuracy of any gun would be totally destroyed without gaining much grounds in reducing the kick or felt recoil…So why do it?
Ported barrels release most gases and pressure BEHIND the bullet and BEFORE the bullet leaves the barrel without causing any disruption as the projectile exits the barrel…Ported barrels are not allowed in SP or in RF.
Some factors that determine the accuracy of a barrel are:
The overall consistency (measurement) of the bore, the smoothness of the grooves and lands over its entire length, the selection of the SLOWEST twist rate that will stabilize the bullet to be used, the appropriate selection of a Match Chamber and a good crown are probably the most important ones…For a Pardini, a BENTZ or similar Match Chamber is most likely used…
BENTZ chambers can effectively be used in machine guns without any feeding problems, so an assumption that for Rapid Fire shooting with a semi-auto pistol a SLOPPY CHAMBER (for trouble free and fast feeding) is needed, results in not an intelligent assumption or a credible answer…
I am sure that Pardini knows all this mentioned above and much more, and I am sure that neither a sloppy chamber for faster feeding or an over-bored barrel for less recoil ARE USED in the SP-RF or in any other guns that they manufacture.
Maybe somebody pulled your leg …or…Maybe you are trying to pull ours!!
Best regards for all members,
AZUARO
I don't think so. You're assuming quite a lot there. The info about the chamber being longer than needed for the .22lr actually corresponds to some info I got from Swiss and German national team shooters in previous years - this is not really news. Apparently, this is a strategy to release some gas around the bullet which should lower V0 and reduce recoil. Don't know the actual physics behind it, and don't know whether it works, but more than one world class shooter confirmed that the RF Pardini won't group as well as the standard pistol, because of the special barrel.
Tycho,
You say: "You are assuming quite a lot here"....Well, I thought that I posted some facts and not assumptions...Can you be more specific about what do you think that I am assuming so I can explain?
You say: "A chamber longer than needed"...Not so, a longer chamber is not intended for releasing gases around the bullet, an over-bored barrel is...This is a fact. But then again, please read again my post before yours so you can understand why over-boring doesn't work in a .22 RF caliber...Not even if the world champion tells you that it does!
A longer chamber is mainly used for shooting many different types of bullets in the same gun...You will find longer chambers-throats in many plinking pistols and also in plinking & hunting rifles, but you will not find it in a Top Notch target pistol or rifle intended for high accuracy...This is another fact.
A longer chamber will require the bullet to "jump" for engaging the rifling (grooves and lands) and if the bullet jumped out of a perfect center you are going to get a flyer...An over-bored barrel is going to let the bullet "yaw" INSIDE the barrel while spinning and you would get either: Another flyer or a tear hole.
You will never wear out a barrel of a .22 rim fire because you use lead bullets and the barrel is made out of steel, the .22 RF barrel "wears out" at the throat because of erosion, meaning that the hot gases and burning powder destroy it making it uneven and larger (with a bore scope it looks pitted).
The inaccuracy caused by an eroded throat is derived from the bullet not engaging the rifling in a concentric manner. A very similar effect (worse) is created using an over-bored barrel. You can fix an eroded throat by cutting 1 or 2 threads of the barrel, re-threading it and then by cutting a new chamber (The new chamber will be where the eroded throat was)... This is fine as long as you don't have barrel length limitations (usually done in rifles and very seldom done in pistols with short barrels as the SP). YOU CAN NOT FIX AN OVER-BORED BARREL unless you move to a larger caliber...
If you order a barrel for a Pardini SP or for a Pardini SP-RF, the part number for either gun will be part number 702-1...If there is no difference in the part number then there shouldn't be any difference in the barrel, don't you think?
For practical purposes Pardini calls "Barrel Configuration" the barrel itself and whatever is in front of it, meaning the 6 weights and springs (in the new SP and SP-RF models). So when they say that THE BARREL has been set for Rapid Fire shooting they actually mean that the heavy tungsten weights and springs are used instead of the standard ones used in the SP new. Don't confuse this statement with internal modifications to the barrel.
It has been my experience that not all shooters, including world champions are the bible or the best of technicians and I don't really think that any champion is going to disclose to anyone the technical secrets that contributed in making him/her a champion; I know some skeet and trap world class shooters who don't know a thing about how their guns are designed...They just shoot them and win!
Regards,
AZUARO
You say: "You are assuming quite a lot here"....Well, I thought that I posted some facts and not assumptions...Can you be more specific about what do you think that I am assuming so I can explain?
You say: "A chamber longer than needed"...Not so, a longer chamber is not intended for releasing gases around the bullet, an over-bored barrel is...This is a fact. But then again, please read again my post before yours so you can understand why over-boring doesn't work in a .22 RF caliber...Not even if the world champion tells you that it does!
A longer chamber is mainly used for shooting many different types of bullets in the same gun...You will find longer chambers-throats in many plinking pistols and also in plinking & hunting rifles, but you will not find it in a Top Notch target pistol or rifle intended for high accuracy...This is another fact.
A longer chamber will require the bullet to "jump" for engaging the rifling (grooves and lands) and if the bullet jumped out of a perfect center you are going to get a flyer...An over-bored barrel is going to let the bullet "yaw" INSIDE the barrel while spinning and you would get either: Another flyer or a tear hole.
You will never wear out a barrel of a .22 rim fire because you use lead bullets and the barrel is made out of steel, the .22 RF barrel "wears out" at the throat because of erosion, meaning that the hot gases and burning powder destroy it making it uneven and larger (with a bore scope it looks pitted).
The inaccuracy caused by an eroded throat is derived from the bullet not engaging the rifling in a concentric manner. A very similar effect (worse) is created using an over-bored barrel. You can fix an eroded throat by cutting 1 or 2 threads of the barrel, re-threading it and then by cutting a new chamber (The new chamber will be where the eroded throat was)... This is fine as long as you don't have barrel length limitations (usually done in rifles and very seldom done in pistols with short barrels as the SP). YOU CAN NOT FIX AN OVER-BORED BARREL unless you move to a larger caliber...
If you order a barrel for a Pardini SP or for a Pardini SP-RF, the part number for either gun will be part number 702-1...If there is no difference in the part number then there shouldn't be any difference in the barrel, don't you think?
For practical purposes Pardini calls "Barrel Configuration" the barrel itself and whatever is in front of it, meaning the 6 weights and springs (in the new SP and SP-RF models). So when they say that THE BARREL has been set for Rapid Fire shooting they actually mean that the heavy tungsten weights and springs are used instead of the standard ones used in the SP new. Don't confuse this statement with internal modifications to the barrel.
It has been my experience that not all shooters, including world champions are the bible or the best of technicians and I don't really think that any champion is going to disclose to anyone the technical secrets that contributed in making him/her a champion; I know some skeet and trap world class shooters who don't know a thing about how their guns are designed...They just shoot them and win!
Regards,
AZUARO
For one, you're assuming that Italian pistol designers generally follow conventional thinking. That is plainly wrong, as history shows.
I'm only writing what other people - who are by way of their credentials very believable - told me. The Pardini barrel is said to be redesigned in some way to release a bit of gas around the bullet and therefore reduce recoil, sacrificing a bit of precision. I'm not a NASA rocket engineer, so don't ask me about the physics behind it. But your stating here that the information somebody else got from Pardini just HAS to be wrong is IMHO not quite acceptable.
I find it absolutely plausible that in a specialized RF pistol, a manufacturer will take a compromise between precision and recoil recovery. In the old .22 short pistols, 40mm groups were not uncommon and not something to complain about, so 30mm shouldn't be a problem today - it's the same target. Neither is barrel wear a problem, as RF shooters are used to throw stuff away every ten thousand shots. Pardini mags don't hold up, either.
Pardini always made special barrels. Haven't studied any part numbers, but, for example, I have a Pardini barrel that is very clearly and intentionally tighter than all the others. It was sold to me as "special", and it is. As none of my Pardini barrels is marked, there is no way to see that from the outside. Assuming that all .22 barrels of Pardini have to follow the same design rules seems like a shortcut in the theory.
Most RF shooters are way above average in their technical knowledge, in my experience - you break so much stuff, you've got to know your pistol... So assuming (there we go again) that world class shooters don't know what they're talking about and can't tell the difference between two different barrels (in terms of recoil) seems quite pretentous.
Right now, it's your theory, based on a bunch of assumptions, against the verbal statements of at least 3 world class shooters AND a written statement of Pardini themselves...
I'm only writing what other people - who are by way of their credentials very believable - told me. The Pardini barrel is said to be redesigned in some way to release a bit of gas around the bullet and therefore reduce recoil, sacrificing a bit of precision. I'm not a NASA rocket engineer, so don't ask me about the physics behind it. But your stating here that the information somebody else got from Pardini just HAS to be wrong is IMHO not quite acceptable.
I find it absolutely plausible that in a specialized RF pistol, a manufacturer will take a compromise between precision and recoil recovery. In the old .22 short pistols, 40mm groups were not uncommon and not something to complain about, so 30mm shouldn't be a problem today - it's the same target. Neither is barrel wear a problem, as RF shooters are used to throw stuff away every ten thousand shots. Pardini mags don't hold up, either.
Pardini always made special barrels. Haven't studied any part numbers, but, for example, I have a Pardini barrel that is very clearly and intentionally tighter than all the others. It was sold to me as "special", and it is. As none of my Pardini barrels is marked, there is no way to see that from the outside. Assuming that all .22 barrels of Pardini have to follow the same design rules seems like a shortcut in the theory.
Most RF shooters are way above average in their technical knowledge, in my experience - you break so much stuff, you've got to know your pistol... So assuming (there we go again) that world class shooters don't know what they're talking about and can't tell the difference between two different barrels (in terms of recoil) seems quite pretentous.
Right now, it's your theory, based on a bunch of assumptions, against the verbal statements of at least 3 world class shooters AND a written statement of Pardini themselves...
Tycho,
Don't take it personal or feel offended...I presented technical information of how things work; these are facts and are not speculation. I am not contradicting Pardini or anybody including those world class shooters...You are all free to believe in whatever you want to believe in and you are also free to believe whatever you are told by anyone…
You say: "But your stating here that the information somebody else got from Pardini just HAS to be wrong is IMHO not quite acceptable”. By no means!...On the contrary, WE WILL ALL LIKE TO READ THE EMAIL OR WRITTEN STATEMENT WHERE PARDINI says what we are discussing in this thread...I asked Jawedumer to please “copy and paste” in this thread the communication he says that he received directly from PARDINI. I guess that we all shall wait to find what it says before concluding anything...
You also mention that is my theory vs. "A Pardini Written Statement". Well; will you please also post this Pardini Written Statement that you obviously have read so we can all illustrate ourselves?
A reputable precision pistol manufacturer compromising or stating that an over-bored barrel and a sloppy or larger chamber are used for releasing pressure in order to reduce recoil could not be considered reputable or serious...Such a statement would be like FERRARI saying: “This ENZO will go to 200+ MPH and then back to a full stop in 26 seconds and for achieving this we are using DRUM BRAKES and POLYGLASS TIRES!”
I understand any factory testing and looking for a technical edge over the competition, but experimentation has its limitations ruled by engineering, technology, physics and money. Internal ballistics is way more complicated than external ballistics and this is why manufacturers try to stay away from messing with the internals of a barrel.
A gun is a very simple instrument for shooting bullets, anyone with some mechanical skills can manufacture a gun…There is just “NO MAGIC SECRET” that certain manufacturer knows and the others don’t and the edge of one company over another relies in reliability, quality, accuracy, balance, construction, trigger group, materials used, finish, SERVICE, etc.
Hopefully we will get something positive out of this thread…
Best Regards for all members,
AZUARO
Don't take it personal or feel offended...I presented technical information of how things work; these are facts and are not speculation. I am not contradicting Pardini or anybody including those world class shooters...You are all free to believe in whatever you want to believe in and you are also free to believe whatever you are told by anyone…
You say: "But your stating here that the information somebody else got from Pardini just HAS to be wrong is IMHO not quite acceptable”. By no means!...On the contrary, WE WILL ALL LIKE TO READ THE EMAIL OR WRITTEN STATEMENT WHERE PARDINI says what we are discussing in this thread...I asked Jawedumer to please “copy and paste” in this thread the communication he says that he received directly from PARDINI. I guess that we all shall wait to find what it says before concluding anything...
You also mention that is my theory vs. "A Pardini Written Statement". Well; will you please also post this Pardini Written Statement that you obviously have read so we can all illustrate ourselves?
A reputable precision pistol manufacturer compromising or stating that an over-bored barrel and a sloppy or larger chamber are used for releasing pressure in order to reduce recoil could not be considered reputable or serious...Such a statement would be like FERRARI saying: “This ENZO will go to 200+ MPH and then back to a full stop in 26 seconds and for achieving this we are using DRUM BRAKES and POLYGLASS TIRES!”
I understand any factory testing and looking for a technical edge over the competition, but experimentation has its limitations ruled by engineering, technology, physics and money. Internal ballistics is way more complicated than external ballistics and this is why manufacturers try to stay away from messing with the internals of a barrel.
A gun is a very simple instrument for shooting bullets, anyone with some mechanical skills can manufacture a gun…There is just “NO MAGIC SECRET” that certain manufacturer knows and the others don’t and the edge of one company over another relies in reliability, quality, accuracy, balance, construction, trigger group, materials used, finish, SERVICE, etc.
Hopefully we will get something positive out of this thread…
Best Regards for all members,
AZUARO
Dear Members,
Since this thread was getting controversial and going nowhere, I contacted Alberto Trincia who is in the technical department with Pardini in Italy (Pardini Armi Srl , Via Italica 154/A – 55041 Lido di Camaiore (LU) Italy – Tel 0039058490121
Alberto clarified the issue about the different barrels, it is very simple:
The barrel in the SP has a TIGHTER bore than standard compared to the barrel in the SP-RF, this is an effort for trying to gain a little better accuracy…The chambers are no different.
He also mentioned that PARDINI is doing some testing using a "Choked" barrel which is not new and has been done in the past (Anschutz, FWB, Hammerli, etc.). I read in a technical gun manufacturing magazine that Anschutz discontinued this practice some time ago but I have not further researched this topic.
Note: For those who want to know what a choke supposedly does, this is what I know: It has been said that it makes the gun shoot different types of ammo more accurately, meaning that it will make the firearm less cartridge sensitive. Nevertheless, there is not enough evidence or proof that this actually happens.
When asked about the accuracy differences in between the two SP models he didn’t want to compromise and answered:
“It is quite difficult to give you some exact accuracy measures as depending on ammunition and lot. The same barrel in different guns can have significant differences”... He stated that as long as the groups fell within their parameters (15mm for the SF and 30 mm for the standard SP) that the guns passed inspection-testing. He was clear enough to mention that this was a filter and not represented the actual accuracy of either gun.
He didn’t say anything about why PARDINI uses the same part number for both barrels.
In a simple manner this means:
The tighter than standard bore in the SP will create more pressure with an end result of a harder kick. The slide in the SP is solid-heavier for dealing with this extra pressure; the tighter bore has been used in an effort for getting a little better accuracy.
The 15 and 30mm sometimes misinterpreted as the "Actual Accuracy" of the SP and SP-RF are standards set for testing and for passing inspection. A gun that doesn't pass SP standards may pass RF standards but you could have an SP-RF that shoots tighter than an ordinary SP (see picture below)...This "filtering" is very understandable given the different sizes of the targets.
The bore in the SP-RF is not tight (Standard bore) so the pressure and kick will be lesser than in the SP.
Note: It is very important to mention that the standard bore barrel in the SP-RF doesn't mean that gases are released in between the barrel and the bullet for diminishing the pressure (Overbore) as it has been discussed in this thread…A less tighter barrel only means that the bullet will have less friction and will leave the barrel faster creating less pressure and less recoil. The slide in the SP-RF has been lightened because of the lesser pressure and the difference in weight has been added to the front part of the barrel replacing 6 weights of steel (SP) with Tungsten ones (SP-RF)…(35 grams vs. 14 grams for the steel weights)
Alberto Trincia added that during the last year they have made more changes to the SP-RF: “Since last year we also have a new bolt with an integrated damper. Thanks to the removable elastomer rings (O rings) it is also possible to personalize the recoil absorber hardness”
Summarizing: The SP-RF has less operating pressure that the standard SP but it doesn’t have an over-bored barrel. Both guns are very accurate but the SP is intended for more accuracy at the expense of a tighter bore-harder kick. My experience is that the average bore of a .22 RF barrel is .217 and .215 whenever a tighter bore is used, but these standards may vary slightly according to the barrel manufacturer.
For those who insist that the RF is not as accurate as the SP, Alberto sent me some pictures for posting them in this thread...Please note that the target was shot with an SP-RF using Eley Tenex ammo which shows "dream" accuracy for a standard SP or for any other top of the line SP pistol and more than enough accuracy for any kind of competition...
Since I have nothing left to present about this issue, I will then leave this thread permanently...Thank you all for your very valuable input.
Best regards for all members,
AZUARO
Since this thread was getting controversial and going nowhere, I contacted Alberto Trincia who is in the technical department with Pardini in Italy (Pardini Armi Srl , Via Italica 154/A – 55041 Lido di Camaiore (LU) Italy – Tel 0039058490121
Alberto clarified the issue about the different barrels, it is very simple:
The barrel in the SP has a TIGHTER bore than standard compared to the barrel in the SP-RF, this is an effort for trying to gain a little better accuracy…The chambers are no different.
He also mentioned that PARDINI is doing some testing using a "Choked" barrel which is not new and has been done in the past (Anschutz, FWB, Hammerli, etc.). I read in a technical gun manufacturing magazine that Anschutz discontinued this practice some time ago but I have not further researched this topic.
Note: For those who want to know what a choke supposedly does, this is what I know: It has been said that it makes the gun shoot different types of ammo more accurately, meaning that it will make the firearm less cartridge sensitive. Nevertheless, there is not enough evidence or proof that this actually happens.
When asked about the accuracy differences in between the two SP models he didn’t want to compromise and answered:
“It is quite difficult to give you some exact accuracy measures as depending on ammunition and lot. The same barrel in different guns can have significant differences”... He stated that as long as the groups fell within their parameters (15mm for the SF and 30 mm for the standard SP) that the guns passed inspection-testing. He was clear enough to mention that this was a filter and not represented the actual accuracy of either gun.
He didn’t say anything about why PARDINI uses the same part number for both barrels.
In a simple manner this means:
The tighter than standard bore in the SP will create more pressure with an end result of a harder kick. The slide in the SP is solid-heavier for dealing with this extra pressure; the tighter bore has been used in an effort for getting a little better accuracy.
The 15 and 30mm sometimes misinterpreted as the "Actual Accuracy" of the SP and SP-RF are standards set for testing and for passing inspection. A gun that doesn't pass SP standards may pass RF standards but you could have an SP-RF that shoots tighter than an ordinary SP (see picture below)...This "filtering" is very understandable given the different sizes of the targets.
The bore in the SP-RF is not tight (Standard bore) so the pressure and kick will be lesser than in the SP.
Note: It is very important to mention that the standard bore barrel in the SP-RF doesn't mean that gases are released in between the barrel and the bullet for diminishing the pressure (Overbore) as it has been discussed in this thread…A less tighter barrel only means that the bullet will have less friction and will leave the barrel faster creating less pressure and less recoil. The slide in the SP-RF has been lightened because of the lesser pressure and the difference in weight has been added to the front part of the barrel replacing 6 weights of steel (SP) with Tungsten ones (SP-RF)…(35 grams vs. 14 grams for the steel weights)
Alberto Trincia added that during the last year they have made more changes to the SP-RF: “Since last year we also have a new bolt with an integrated damper. Thanks to the removable elastomer rings (O rings) it is also possible to personalize the recoil absorber hardness”
Summarizing: The SP-RF has less operating pressure that the standard SP but it doesn’t have an over-bored barrel. Both guns are very accurate but the SP is intended for more accuracy at the expense of a tighter bore-harder kick. My experience is that the average bore of a .22 RF barrel is .217 and .215 whenever a tighter bore is used, but these standards may vary slightly according to the barrel manufacturer.
For those who insist that the RF is not as accurate as the SP, Alberto sent me some pictures for posting them in this thread...Please note that the target was shot with an SP-RF using Eley Tenex ammo which shows "dream" accuracy for a standard SP or for any other top of the line SP pistol and more than enough accuracy for any kind of competition...
Since I have nothing left to present about this issue, I will then leave this thread permanently...Thank you all for your very valuable input.
Best regards for all members,
AZUARO
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Last edited by azuaro on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:41 pm, edited 9 times in total.