E targets for new range.
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E targets for new range.
We're building a new 20 point air gun range and we are looking at putting in electronic targets. I'm looking for opinions on current commercial systems that are out there. Megalink and sius are the two that come to mind.how does their software work to run practice and matches? Looking at the newer laser base systems so we Don't. have to deal with Consumable materials.
Re: E targets for new range.
I think the CMP ranges are mostly using the Kongsberg systems now:
https://www.kongsbergtargets.com/
I'm pretty sure the CMP air gun ranges all use them, but they stopped using them for .22 pistol at the Talladega range for some reason.
The college I coach at uses SIUS. They are great to shoot on, but their software is REALLY complex, and setting up for a match is a bit complicated. The HS10 targets can only be networked in banks of 10, so you need a network bridge and additional computers to run a 20 point range.
The Megalink systems I've seen all use a moving backer, which SIUS does not. Not sure about Kongsberg.
https://www.kongsbergtargets.com/
I'm pretty sure the CMP air gun ranges all use them, but they stopped using them for .22 pistol at the Talladega range for some reason.
The college I coach at uses SIUS. They are great to shoot on, but their software is REALLY complex, and setting up for a match is a bit complicated. The HS10 targets can only be networked in banks of 10, so you need a network bridge and additional computers to run a 20 point range.
The Megalink systems I've seen all use a moving backer, which SIUS does not. Not sure about Kongsberg.
Re: E targets for new range.
The CMP is using Kongsberg at both Anniston and Camp Perry. I have witnessed an issue only one time, over many different matches...the shot fired was clearly not where indicated..the target was recalibrated....the system does not use witness paper. (Renay Woodruff is a great person, and a great contact at CMP South...she may be able to help you with Kongsberg questions.)
We use SIUS on our local range. No issues at all, and no witness paper. Since 2012 we have had only encountered errors twice...both times we uninstalled and reinstalled the software, for the fix. We are running several different equipment versions of the SIUS HS10, bought over time. They seem to work together fine. We learned to always shut down the service, before powering down/disconnecting the system, and have no issues anymore. No consumables, unless you choose to use them.
Megalink is the system we have experienced the most issues with...when used at major universities and, formerly at the CMP....the 4K187...it does have witness paper...most of the issues involved alibis and connection issues. I always wondered if setting up, and taking down the targets (at some ranges) after, led to the alibis and connection issues. I note from their website the 4K187 might not currently be sold.
20 points would be a significant investment. I would contact the university nearest you, that uses electronic targets, and actually go see what they are doing. Talk to them about the pros/cons of their existing system, etc. I would bet that the person in charge of the range knows exactly what is right, or wrong, with their system. They probably can guide you on current contacts within the industry, as well.
Personnel turnover over seems fast for many of the systems; except for SIUS (only one time in the last decade.)
Even without witness paper, you will always need target faces- for both air rifle, and air pistol.
At the end of the day, from the perspective of someone who has operated a range for several decades, ask these questions- how robust are the targets?; do they require frequent maintenance?; are the targets user repairable?; if not, what is the turn around time for repair?; for parts?
Finally, do you want to be able to conduct ISSF matches at your facility? Will the targets selected need to be ISSF approved? ISSF matches generally require witness paper, or the ability to use it. Which means Megalink, SIUS, Meyton, or Disag...
https://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=1892
Long term support is something one must consider. Short term support is kind of like buying a car at the buy here, pay here, lot. You get what you pay for.
We use SIUS on our local range. No issues at all, and no witness paper. Since 2012 we have had only encountered errors twice...both times we uninstalled and reinstalled the software, for the fix. We are running several different equipment versions of the SIUS HS10, bought over time. They seem to work together fine. We learned to always shut down the service, before powering down/disconnecting the system, and have no issues anymore. No consumables, unless you choose to use them.
Megalink is the system we have experienced the most issues with...when used at major universities and, formerly at the CMP....the 4K187...it does have witness paper...most of the issues involved alibis and connection issues. I always wondered if setting up, and taking down the targets (at some ranges) after, led to the alibis and connection issues. I note from their website the 4K187 might not currently be sold.
20 points would be a significant investment. I would contact the university nearest you, that uses electronic targets, and actually go see what they are doing. Talk to them about the pros/cons of their existing system, etc. I would bet that the person in charge of the range knows exactly what is right, or wrong, with their system. They probably can guide you on current contacts within the industry, as well.
Personnel turnover over seems fast for many of the systems; except for SIUS (only one time in the last decade.)
Even without witness paper, you will always need target faces- for both air rifle, and air pistol.
At the end of the day, from the perspective of someone who has operated a range for several decades, ask these questions- how robust are the targets?; do they require frequent maintenance?; are the targets user repairable?; if not, what is the turn around time for repair?; for parts?
Finally, do you want to be able to conduct ISSF matches at your facility? Will the targets selected need to be ISSF approved? ISSF matches generally require witness paper, or the ability to use it. Which means Megalink, SIUS, Meyton, or Disag...
https://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=1892
Long term support is something one must consider. Short term support is kind of like buying a car at the buy here, pay here, lot. You get what you pay for.
Re: E targets for new range.
We have a local club that trains the state junior pistol team. They have the SIUS system, but they have to completely disassemble everything and then set it up again every week. They have had a LOT of trouble with it over time. They just sent 4 of their 9 targets back to SIUS for repair. I think Coast Guard had similar issues with their Megalink system. They are ALL really best set up in a dedicated range & left configured and connected.
Re: E targets for new range.
CMP has new Kongsberg eScore targets for their smallbore range and you should see them in matches going forward. They are going to be beautiful and far more robust than the OpticScore targets. Wireless firing points as well.
Re: E targets for new range.
What part of the country are you building a new range? I need to know if it’s within driving distance for when you start holding matches!
Re: E targets for new range.
What you need is SQ10 with SynQro range setup. Zero consumables - true zero as is not even target faces as you are shooting live pellets against a computer screen directly. Anything you can draw on a computer screen - you can shoot at and score (think specialty targets, any discipline, any rules/federation)
https://sportshootingdepot.com/product/ ... b-pack-10/
Above link is just an example of a range pack - each setup is range specific. This system has the lowest TCO and the best flexibility/upgradeability on the market on top of a superb accuracy.
https://sportshootingdepot.com/product/ ... b-pack-10/
Above link is just an example of a range pack - each setup is range specific. This system has the lowest TCO and the best flexibility/upgradeability on the market on top of a superb accuracy.
Re: E targets for new range.
At my local 10/15meter range, we have the Megalink 3d score that is optical and don't need witnes paper.
It was intalled in 2018 and has worked without problems since.
As we have Kongsberg on our 25 meter range, i have hosted competitions on both.
Would say that Megalink has a better software system of the two.
In comparison to Sius, i have no experience. But what i hear from others that have experience with both, is that Sius is the worse option regarding software.
It was intalled in 2018 and has worked without problems since.
As we have Kongsberg on our 25 meter range, i have hosted competitions on both.
Would say that Megalink has a better software system of the two.
In comparison to Sius, i have no experience. But what i hear from others that have experience with both, is that Sius is the worse option regarding software.
Re: E targets for new range.
Interesting.lots to discuss here.sius is significantly less expensive than megalink. We have some Kongsberg in our rifle range, ok, but not impressed.
We're in fargo nd...
We're in fargo nd...
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thirdwheel
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:16 pm
- Location: England
Re: E targets for new range.
+1 for the Spots Quantum targets as our club uses a set of 6, all Wifi so no connection cables, we have ours on stands with wheels so easy to put away, no day to day consumables but you shoot against a polycarbonate surface that needs changing after many thousands of shots.
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Marc Orvin
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:23 am
- Location: Colorado
Re: E targets for new range.
I have worked extensively with the SIUS targets since 1996 World Cup and Olympic Games in Atlanta. I also work with the Megalink targets at the OTPC in Colorado Springs. So, I can speak to both systems. Never have worked with KTS, so know nothing about them other than by rumor and second hand information.
SIUS is a great system and I am told is cheaper than Megalink or KTS. Can't say that for sure as I have never priced the other two, but I have it on excellent authority that this is true. In the old days, Megalink and SIUS were acoustic targets, thus needed the witness paper to score properly. Now, Both have light systems that can work perfectly well without witness paper. However, as has been reported above, if you are to hold an ISSF Regional Championship (PanAm or CAT) you would need the witness paper. Is that something you foresee doing? Probably not.
I've heard all the stories about SIUS software being difficult. I disagree. I've run that software for decades and it is as easy to use, or even easier in some situations than the Megalink software. Early on, it was DOS based and the fault screens were all in Swiss/German. That was a bit disconcerting, but it hasn't been that way for 20 years.
The thing I like best about SIUS software is the ability to send names to the match from a spreadsheet. Your typical entry list compiled by the folks taking money and putting people in the correct matches is usually done on a spreadsheet. All you need to do is get the name, competitor number, and event from that entry list and paste it directly in to the SIUS Rank software. Couldn't be easier. Then at the end of the match you can copy the file from SIUS Rank back into the spreadsheet to create your match results, or, even easier is to just print the match results as they come out of SIUS Rank. That works for once-through-the-course matches. But, if you are at the USAS Nationals, where they go twice through the course, you must take the file from Rank and run it through the spreadsheet to total the two day score. This is all MUCH easier than anything Megalink does. Currently at the OPTC for Winter Airgun, which is 3 times through the course, you have to hand enter the 10 shot strings from the Megalink printout into a spreadsheet. Very labor intensive.
One slight advantage of Megalink is the ability to create "home-made" matches that are not standard events. You can manually create some events in Megalink. It can be done also in SIUS, but it is a bit tougher.
SIUS in Switzerland did a remarkable job creating special software for the NCAA Rifle Championship this spring at the University of Akron. This is a non-typical event as it is a smallbore match shot at 50 feet (3x20) combined with a standard 60 shot air rifle match scored in integer (as all college matches are). The trick was to combine the scores of both events and show a running, up to the minute, ranking of each school and their result so that at any time it was possible to see which school was leading the aggregate total. It came off without a hitch at that event and kept the spectators and coaches up to the minute with results. You won't find that kind of thing in any other e-target software that I am aware of. Somebody please jump in here and correct me if I am wrong.
While it is possible to gather scores in Megalink at the central ranking office, this function has been inoperable at the OTPC for several years now.
My advice to you is to contact SIUS USA for a quote on exactly what you need. If you are not running ISSF Regional Championships, you don't need the witness paper, so all you have for consumables is faces. Those are priced about the same for Megalink and SIUS. And if you ever need help on the software for either SIUS or Megalink, please contact me here on this board. Happy to help.
SIUS is a great system and I am told is cheaper than Megalink or KTS. Can't say that for sure as I have never priced the other two, but I have it on excellent authority that this is true. In the old days, Megalink and SIUS were acoustic targets, thus needed the witness paper to score properly. Now, Both have light systems that can work perfectly well without witness paper. However, as has been reported above, if you are to hold an ISSF Regional Championship (PanAm or CAT) you would need the witness paper. Is that something you foresee doing? Probably not.
I've heard all the stories about SIUS software being difficult. I disagree. I've run that software for decades and it is as easy to use, or even easier in some situations than the Megalink software. Early on, it was DOS based and the fault screens were all in Swiss/German. That was a bit disconcerting, but it hasn't been that way for 20 years.
The thing I like best about SIUS software is the ability to send names to the match from a spreadsheet. Your typical entry list compiled by the folks taking money and putting people in the correct matches is usually done on a spreadsheet. All you need to do is get the name, competitor number, and event from that entry list and paste it directly in to the SIUS Rank software. Couldn't be easier. Then at the end of the match you can copy the file from SIUS Rank back into the spreadsheet to create your match results, or, even easier is to just print the match results as they come out of SIUS Rank. That works for once-through-the-course matches. But, if you are at the USAS Nationals, where they go twice through the course, you must take the file from Rank and run it through the spreadsheet to total the two day score. This is all MUCH easier than anything Megalink does. Currently at the OPTC for Winter Airgun, which is 3 times through the course, you have to hand enter the 10 shot strings from the Megalink printout into a spreadsheet. Very labor intensive.
One slight advantage of Megalink is the ability to create "home-made" matches that are not standard events. You can manually create some events in Megalink. It can be done also in SIUS, but it is a bit tougher.
SIUS in Switzerland did a remarkable job creating special software for the NCAA Rifle Championship this spring at the University of Akron. This is a non-typical event as it is a smallbore match shot at 50 feet (3x20) combined with a standard 60 shot air rifle match scored in integer (as all college matches are). The trick was to combine the scores of both events and show a running, up to the minute, ranking of each school and their result so that at any time it was possible to see which school was leading the aggregate total. It came off without a hitch at that event and kept the spectators and coaches up to the minute with results. You won't find that kind of thing in any other e-target software that I am aware of. Somebody please jump in here and correct me if I am wrong.
While it is possible to gather scores in Megalink at the central ranking office, this function has been inoperable at the OTPC for several years now.
My advice to you is to contact SIUS USA for a quote on exactly what you need. If you are not running ISSF Regional Championships, you don't need the witness paper, so all you have for consumables is faces. Those are priced about the same for Megalink and SIUS. And if you ever need help on the software for either SIUS or Megalink, please contact me here on this board. Happy to help.