TargetTalk

Your opinion please.

My club recently purchased brand new SIUS equipment. After about 6 months use at this small local club the equipment used for rifles is like new - however the equipment used for pistol shooting is really taking a punch. My guess is this lovely expensive SIUS system wont last a year (see picture)

Any solutions guys, how to tackle this and protect the investment so it will serve the club for a long time?

The folks at the NRA (of America) competitions division who want to use electronic targets at Camp Perry need to see these pictures.

1.Require proof of ability before shooters are allowed to shoot the e-targets with air pistols.
2. Build an aluminum frame to protect the frame of the e-target and buy face templates in large quantity.
3. Only use the e-targets for matches and organized practices, combined with item #1. This would require some number of manual or electromechanical targets for the use of those who cannot shoot the e-targets.

john bickar wrote:The folks at the NRA (of America) competitions division who want to use electronic targets at Camp Perry need to see these pictures.

But John, the "e-targets won't require all of the costly and time consuming maintenance of the old mechanical system." They will be cheaper. :-)


If you can run the number and reach that conclusion, let me know.

I don't believe those are air pistol hits.
I don't even think they are smallbore.
If I was "in charge" of maintaining those targets, I'd go non-linear. That's a disgrace.

On the targets in Colorado Springs and at Ft. Benning, you hit a frame 3 times and you are disqualified.

JMDAVIS is correct --- proof of ability is needed here. That is unsupervised chaos.
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If those targets are used and no supervision is coming those faces need to be protected with something like AR550 steel.
Probably also need a max power factor .. if the frame is cratered like that, it is unsafe as that's when you'll get splashback right at the firing line.

These are 22LR pistols and the frames are aluminum. Using this system is wonderful, but its prone to damage.

My question is; in your experience is this normal or misuse? Does people have to be in a special class before using these?

Giddaymate wrote:My question is; in your experience is this normal or misuse? Does people have to be in a special class before using these?

My opinion:
1) Misuse .... 1 or 2 hits on the frame ... OK, but if those frames are aluminum, then you'll get unrepairable pitting and they are then unsafe. You need a steel in front to protect them ... it's not cheap, but an AR550 steel or equiv will easily withstand smallbore & lower power centerfire pistol with only the paint being knocked off ... absolutely no pitting.

2) Special class? ... they have to be able to hit the target! From the pictures you posted, the folks are either inept ... well, I don't know, but on the right hand side of the top target you can clearly see they are walking the shots onto the target. The frames are not for sighters. Maybe have a wooden "sighter station" to get folks into the center of the bull.

Honestly ... right now those frames are unsafe.

Giddaymate wrote:...My question is; in your experience is this normal or misuse? Does people have to be in a special class before using these?

I wouldn't say misuse more like mismanaged.

Allowing shooter(s) to continually hammer the frame is mismanagement. Set the rules to minimize hits and enforce them.
If that is not an option at your club then you need to look into better protection. A proper steel plate in front of the target with a hole larger than the black say maybe 2" larger would be a solution.

Now one more question, Is it on purpose? We have members at our range that will purposely shoot at the target supports (wood). They know if they get caught they are out but they still do it.

- Dave
ps At my local indoor range where we have retrievable target carriers and get all kinds of different skill levels they had to limit the 50 yard range to sitting only - no standing because of all the hits equipment (and ceiling) was taking. That is a bummer because I use to practice offhand rifle and slow fire pistol there.

Giddaymate wrote: My question is; in your experience is this normal or misuse? Does people have to be in a special class before using these?

That's intentional; especially on that first picture. A line of hits right up the side, all neatly aligned in a vertical string, without a bunch of "near misses" on the face template?

TomAmlie wrote:That's intentional; especially on that first picture. A line of hits right up the side, all neatly aligned in a vertical string, without a bunch of "near misses" on the face template?

Yep, that was my thought, too.

At my range our e-targets are restricted to supervised use and use by experienced club members who have proven themselves to be trustworthy (in other words, independent use by the supervisors is fine). They are kept locked up, and keys to the trailer are controlled by club leadership. In addition, we have steel armor plating for the front of each target, use of which is required, as it protects the electronics in addition to the frame. On our system (Sius Hybridscore HS-10) the armor is actually where the 50m face mounts, so it's hard to use them without. The steel is, I believe, AR550, and requires only some mild repainting after taking a .22 strike.

We also have a culture at our range that the black is what you should be hitting; as we are a rifles-only club, that's not an unreasonable request. If you're not hitting the black, grab a coach or experienced shooter and they will gladly help you get sighted in. If someone is getting frame hits, a coach or line officer is going to be standing behind them helping them find the black very quickly. If they're in position and can't find it, then it's off the the bench. If someone brings a new rifle or new sight/scope in, they're required to bench it and prove boresight before they are allowed to shoot at all, thanks to some unique safety concerns we have. All of this is provided not in a punitive nature, but rather one of "Hey there, how can I help you with stuff?"

Hope that helps! Definitely get some armor steel in front of those targets ASAP, and strongly consider limiting use to supervised sessions.

Do what we do and only allow shooters with an average of at least 80 to use them. At the rate you're going with those, there'll be nothing left of them before long!

Require a $5 deposit before shooting. One hit...$5...3 hits....$15...etc.

When I next (got dog's disease at the moment) get out to the Sydney range I will take some photos of the 'guards' used on our 25m targets. They have a power factor limit on the 25m EST.

Wolf Creek used to have a policy of 'hold the black on a paper 25m target before you could shoot on EST'.

it is not only 25m: .22WRM will do the same on 50m EST

If your just shooting .22 than A36 should be fine. I shoot a 1/8" A36 gong with .22 at 50 and 100 yards. It gets a little bent but a hammer fixes that.

I like Rovers idea too.

Electronic targets on our range are limited to finals, the national team, and shooters that consistently perform well.
This on the 10m (air) as well as on the 50m range.

You should consider both a restriction on who can shoot there and a front face metal guard. Have also some frames for paper targets available.

As said, have people prove they can at least hold the black before you let them shoot on electronic targets. Then apply Rover's solution on top of that.

And don't feel sorry for those who are not able to shoot on those targets with those rules in place. Remember that these targets are designed for shooters who consistently hit the center, not the frame. They are not build for that. They can take thousands of rounds thru the center but not on the frame...

See it as putting a F1 car (Indy for you americans out there) in the hands of someone who just learned to drive...

And if you still have seconds thoughts on restricting their use, remember that by that rate, you will not have a functioning target by christmas...

Hope this helps

I personally would find it hard to respect that equipment. They look like hammered shit.

To save damage: harden them up. 3/8th steel frame would save the important part of the target.
Angle at 15 deg from centre to throw the splatter away from the target - paint it an off white so it doesnt look different from the target.

The face can be replaced, or so I believe? I think that it would be sound to have anyone who shoots the white would pay to replace it after their match.

I also believe that the Broken Window theory holds true to this sort of thing. I have some tales from my club, but I can probably spare you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Repair any damage immediately and with the due care/diligence. This shows that the gear is respected, cared-for, loved, and appreciated.

Looking at the general grouping and the number of shots far out in the white those people shouldn't be using electronic targets.
The neat line of shots on the side, and the neatly spaced shots on the top look like someone doing it deliberately.

In our club we have a mystery shooter who seem to delight in spinning the turning targets backwards and forwards by hitting them on the edge - judging by the damage. I just don't know how to deal with people that irresponsible and anti-social other than kicking them out.

I would make a steel front piece to protect the side panels, and put wood over that, spaced away a little, to reduce bounceback.

I thing really electronic targets are useful for the Olympics but not much else, of course you need to be able to practice on them...

i think you should made steel custom frame to protect original frame. Make simple attachment and it work.

john bickar wrote:The folks at the NRA (of America) competitions division who want to use electronic targets at Camp Perry need to see these pictures.

Indeed they should. We have enough trouble with all the non-Annie Oakleys shooting up our cheap wooden frame mounts with cardboard and paper targets.

I wonder - Are the hits outside the black still scored electronically? Accurately?

Oh that's not good.

The craters from the shots are dangerous, they will sling lead back in the shooters direction, probably wont make it 25 yards though.

I ran the indoor range for our department. What I learned there was that everything forward of the firing line needs to be considered a consumable and be cheap and easy to replace. If not then it needs to be made of or covered by armor steel.

Here is the fix. Have someone familiar with metal work or fabrication build you a metal frame made of 1/4" AR500 steel that is angled outwards between 30* and 45*.