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daotoys1
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 90
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 Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: Best Hammerli free pistol???
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Im interested in getting a Swiss made Hammerli 22 LR Free Pistol ( single shot) .
Ive had a Hammerli 150 before and liked it. Im currently leaning toward a Swiss Hammerli FP 60 model.
Im not interested in any of the newer German made Hammerli(s), nor another brand.
Im trying to add a free pistol to my Swiss gun collection so it has to be Swiss made, and since Ive loved every Hammerli Ive ever owned, Id like to stay with this manufacturer.
Does anyone have an suggestions, comments, experiences and or thoughts to share???
Again; Im looking to buy the best of the Swiss made Hammerli 22 LR free pistols.......
I appreciate any and all help
TX
DAO
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Leon
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 249
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject:
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| I would say one of the older Hammerli 104 or 106 models - with an octagonal barrel. |
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daotoys1
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject:
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| Leon wrote: | | I would say one of the older Hammerli 104 or 106 models - with an octagonal barrel. |
Can you expand on your answer and tell why you feel these older models would be superior to the later Hammerlis???
My opinion is based on the feeling that the Swiss made Hammerli pistols ( and not the guns that were made for Hammerli by other manufacturer even if they were also Swiss), were being made with a continual improvement up until the Hammerli FP 60, which was their last free pistol prior to Walther of Germany buying the brand and then making guns under the Hammerli name out of Germany.
Is my opinion wrong???
Can you explain why the older model Hammerli free pistols might be better???
thanks for the reply
DAO |
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conradin
Joined: 28 Apr 2012
Posts: 302
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject:
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The FP60 is the same whether it was made in Switzerland or Germany after the machinery has been moved. If you go by Olympic medal counts then 150 is the best, 100 second. The rest of them are also of highest quality but they are thoroughly beaten first by IZH-1, then MC-55, then Toz. However, since most top class Toz (Eastern European) users now switch to FP60 (Sponsorship), it has been "competitive" again. Do not be surprised the gold medal goes to an FP60.
It is of course never about the pistol. but the shooter. Hammerli really does not make any poor pistol. It all depends your taste. |
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Leon
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 249
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:47 am Post subject:
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| daotoys1 wrote: | | Leon wrote: | | I would say one of the older Hammerli 104 or 106 models - with an octagonal barrel. |
Can you expand on your answer and tell why you feel these older models would be superior to the later Hammerlis???
My opinion is based on the feeling that the Swiss made Hammerli pistols ( and not the guns that were made for Hammerli by other manufacturer even if they were also Swiss), were being made with a continual improvement up until the Hammerli FP 60, which was their last free pistol prior to Walther of Germany buying the brand and then making guns under the Hammerli name out of Germany.
Is my opinion wrong???
Can you explain why the older model Hammerli free pistols might be better???
thanks for the reply
DAO |
From a shooting point of view, a Swiss made FP60. From a classic Hammerli point of view, a 104 or 106. |
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Tycho
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 878
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject:
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| From a shooting point as well as from any other point of view, 160 Special. The alu frame of the FP60 is nothing but trouble, and otherwise, they are almost identical, under the cosmetics. |
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xpshooter
Joined: 09 May 2011
Posts: 20
Location: WI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:30 am Post subject:
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| Tycho wrote: | | . The alu frame of the FP60 is nothing but trouble,. |
I am curious upon the above statement. Can you please give examples or go into more details? Please include the number of times the examples you list have been encountered.
Thanks.
xpshooter |
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Tycho
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 878
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:51 am Post subject:
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| I've seen two FP60 where the steel pins of the trigger "ate" the alu frame. Same thing happened to Reinhamre, if you don't believe me. Wouldn't touch that pistol with a pole. Of course, YMMV, one never knows, you might get lucky, or you might shoot a hundred shots per year which won't give you any trouble either. |
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TB
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 196
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:11 am Post subject:
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| Tycho wrote: | | I've seen two FP60 where the steel pins of the trigger "ate" the alu frame. Same thing happened to Reinhamre, if you don't believe me. Wouldn't touch that pistol with a pole. Of course, YMMV, one never knows, you might get lucky, or you might shoot a hundred shots per year which won't give you any trouble either. |
Is seems that Walther has updated the FP60 a little, new grip and compensator. Could it be that they also have solved the problems you describe? Are there any "Walther" FP60 among the ones with trouble you know about? |
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Reinhamre
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:36 am Post subject:
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| No, the problems has not been resolved by Walther. It has been better but the grip angle adjustment is crap! If you tighten the screw on the right side of the grip the "nut" inside the gun WILL eat itself out! |
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daotoys1
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:29 am Post subject:
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In my experience when a captive nut and/or a threaded aluminum or magnesium part is damaged 9x out of 10 it is from misuse or abuse.
Often the person working on the piece simple is not delicate enough with the work he/she is doing and is either starting the threads to forcefully and/or over torquing the fasteners.
Personally I feel that this "fault" in the gun is no problem if you know what you are doing.
Sure it may be more delicate that a steel design, but the point is to both lower the over all weight as well as to better distribute the weight and relocate the center of gravity.
If the owner has heavy hands, or is impatient or just does not know what he/she is doing then it might be better to get a better ( more durable) gun and/or have an experience gunsmith who is familiar with the model do the servicing and/or maintenance of the pistol. |
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Reinhamre
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:00 am Post subject:
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Sorry but you are on the wrong track here...
It is not the "nut" and its thred that is the problem. The nut is gliding in the frame and there is only 1 mm on each side to hold it in place in an aluminium frame. On the right side there is no room for reinforcement.
Left side is better. |
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daotoys1
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:10 am Post subject:
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| Reinhamre wrote: | Sorry but you are on the wrong track here...
It is not the "nut" and its thred that is the problem. The nut is gliding in the frame and there is only 1 mm on each side to hold it in place in an aluminium frame. On the right side there is no room for reinforcement.
Left side is better. |
If you have a picture of this Id like to see it. If not Ill see if I can find one some where.
thanks
DAO |
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jipe
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 796
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:31 am Post subject:
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| Tycho wrote: | | From a shooting point as well as from any other point of view, 160 Special. |
+1, the 160 special was the best free pistol made by Hammerli. |
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lastman
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject:
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If your looking for something to go into a collection. A good condition 102 would be my bet.
If your looking from a statistical point of view the 150 was probably the best FP Hammerli ever made. It's also still a great FP.
I thought the current FP60 was mostly made in Germany with only the barrel being swiss made? Not sure on that point though, I'm sure someone who knows more will be able to correct me if I'm wrong.
I've had one for a couple of years now and not suffered any of the issues mentioned above, nor have I heard of any shooters I know who use them having similar problems. It's also a great FP.
The 160 special is an amazingly good FP and if you can find one it will fit very nicely into your collection.
Good luck |
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slofyr
Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:16 am Post subject:
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Fwiw, according to Larry Carter the 160 is the best 50-meter pistol Hammerli ever built. I don't know if that comment was made from a service standpoint, or its application, but from my experience with it the 160 is a very nice pistol. In my opinion it's OEM duck bill sucks, though. Mine was modified/replaced with a weight rod as is used on the latest FP60. If I bought another 160, it would be the Special.
Regarding the stated FP60 aluminum frame problems, I can't verify. Comment in another thread prompted me to check mine and I see no signs of damage either from the screws holding the Rink grip or around the trigger pin. Where's the stress on a trigger with a 45 gram pull?? Maybe things will change after another case is fired, but the only wear so far is the bluing on the sides of the block. These photos were taken tonight.
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Reinhamre
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:26 am Post subject:
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Look at the right side, the nut for a grip screw does have a rim. Very small and thin, if it not a tight fit here you will be in trouble. Perhaps Walther has made it better. I remember a service guy from Walther once took a look at my gun and he shook his head when I pointed out the problem. I am glad if he made Walther aware of the problem.
He also managed to break the plastic lever on the left side one uses to set the trigger... The weak spot is here where the screw is, it broke right off. But he sent me a new of course. |
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slofyr
Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:28 am Post subject:
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| Reinhamre wrote: | | Look at the right side, the nut for a grip screw does have a rim. Very small and thin, if it not a tight fit here you will be in trouble..... |
That sliding nut has enough thickness and is close enough to the parts under it so that it cannot drop out of the slot and misalign itself, or be intentionally misaligned. Even if it was machined without the guide flats it would still track inside the slot. The only way I can envision damage there is if the grip screw was torqued down with excessive force. Both the OEM and the Rink grips become firmly anchored by lightly snugging the screws, and they stay anchored, there is simply no need to tighten them more.
| Reinhamre wrote: | | ...He also managed to break the plastic lever on the left side one uses to set the trigger... . |
The trigger set levers on the H160 and FP60 are indeed molded plastic and they flex if over-extended. I suspect Hammerli's engineers designed them to flex to prevent damaging the mechanism by too much force because there is only a few grams of resistance when moving them. You can feel the click of the mechanism setting itself after the lever travels about 1/3rd of its allowed motion, so why would you push it further? The levers can bend a lot, and they have been on my 160 and FP60 by new shooters unfamiliar with the pistols. To break a lever, it would have to be pushed way beyond the point of bending and hitting the stop. I just cannot see that happening because over-stroking the lever would be so obvious.
Hammerli did upgrade the design of the set lever on the FP60. The 160 lever tended to feel flexy because it was thin. The FP60 lever has more ribbing and therefore has a much more solid feel under the thumb. The new lever is also slightly thicker; I got some lever drag when trying the factory H160 grip [a Nill] on the FP60. Rink grips made for the 160 seem to fit fine on the 60, though. |
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daotoys1
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:46 am Post subject:
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| slofyr wrote: | | Reinhamre wrote: | | Look at the right side, the nut for a grip screw does have a rim. Very small and thin, if it not a tight fit here you will be in trouble..... |
That sliding nut has enough thickness and is close enough to the parts under it so that it cannot drop out of the slot and misalign itself, or be intentionally misaligned. Even if it was machined without the guide flats it would still track inside the slot. The only way I can envision damage there is if the grip screw was torqued down with excessive force. Both the OEM and the Rink grips become firmly anchored by lightly snugging the screws, and they stay anchored, there is simply no need to tighten them more.
| Reinhamre wrote: | | ...He also managed to break the plastic lever on the left side one uses to set the trigger... . |
The trigger set levers on the H160 and FP60 are indeed molded plastic and they flex if over-extended. I suspect Hammerli's engineers designed them to flex to prevent damaging the mechanism by too much force because there is only a few grams of resistance when moving them. You can feel the click of the mechanism setting itself after the lever travels about 1/3rd of its allowed motion, so why would you push it further? The levers can bend a lot, and they have been on my 160 and FP60 by new shooters unfamiliar with the pistols. To break a lever, it would have to be pushed way beyond the point of bending and hitting the stop. I just cannot see that happening because over-stroking the lever would be so obvious.
Hammerli did upgrade the design of the set lever on the FP60. The 160 lever tended to feel flexy because it was thin. The FP60 lever has more ribbing and therefore has a much more solid feel under the thumb. The new lever is also slightly thicker; I got some lever drag when trying the factory H160 grip [a Nill] on the FP60. Rink grips made for the 160 seem to fit fine on the 60, though. |
My thoughts exactly. People muscle things around and then blame the manufacturers. If people would just think before they act.
These free pistols are highly refined machines not your over built heavy and bulky combat pistol built for not just normal use but made for abuse .......the parts on FPs are delicate and precise. They guns are made for the highest precision and inherent to this goal the design reflects the function.
Ive been collecting/shooting guns for over 50 years and Ive never broken a single part ever. And Im considered a bit of a accident waiting to happen.
DAO |
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ricchap
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 54
Location: Redondo Beach
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject:
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"Fwiw, according to Larry Carter the 160 is the best 50-meter pistol Hammerli ever built."
What a terrible thing to say. Now I am going to have to buy one! As if I don't have enough free pistols already! |
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