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Guest
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 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: SCATT usage please
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Hi guys.My question is for people that own or use a SCATT/Noptel or any trainer for that matter.
I am waiting for a SCATT to arrive from Russia and my question is how often should it be used.Obviously it is a training tool and bullets through the barrell are possibly better but I was just interested in what frequency if at all people were using their trainers.Do you use them when you have issues?.....do you use them weekly?...are they part of a regimented training programme?
Thanks in advance for the feedback. |
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RobStubbs
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2816
Location: Herts, England, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject:
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I use mine when I have specific issues I need to address or when there are items I can't easily examine any other way. Shooting live is only one facet of training, it's the proper combination of techniques and drills that is most important.
Rob. |
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Richard H
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2639
Location: Guelph, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject:
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| I use it to assess baseline performance and improvements, also to assess effects of changes. |
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nester
Joined: 19 Oct 2010
Posts: 64
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject:
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I've read somewhere 30 to 70%
More SCATT for less experienced, less for advanced.
A coach said "SCATT makes technique perfect" - so it's your choice where you need more work.
Personally I train 90% of my time on SCATT, as the range access is kind of limited here. Then on indoor range (no wind, etc) there is will be only one minor difference - recoil.
During the match the main issue is mental, so there is not much difference how to train technically - match is different. |
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EJ
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject:
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| I second nestor's comment, but I even train 100% on it. Very limited range access where I currently live plus I shoot air so the difference to live is minor. I would like to have a few live shoots here and there but that is just not possible at the moment |
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RobStubbs
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2816
Location: Herts, England, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject:
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| nester wrote: | I've read somewhere 30 to 70%
More SCATT for less experienced, less for advanced.
A coach said "SCATT makes technique perfect" - so it's your choice where you need more work. |
I'm gonna disagree... Scatt is purely an information gathering tool.
It can tell you a lot but it can't make your technique perfect. As a coach you need to interpret the data, watch the shooter etc. As an example scatt records for about 10 seconds. How then can you evaluate the shooters approach, never mind their breathing, loading, taking up of the pistol grip, stance etc.. ?
Rob. |
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Brian M
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 260
Location: Warm Springs, GA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:44 am Post subject:
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| RobStubbs wrote: |
I'm gonna disagree... Scatt is purely an information gathering tool.
Rob. |
And I'll go ahead and disagree with you. :) Scatt/Rika/Noptel are designed to be an information gathering tool ~ but for those of us with no range access (other than matches that are all 2+ hours drive away), it's Also a motivational tool.
I can only dry-fire so much before I'm yearning for some feedback on what's going on. Confirmation of the good, and the bad. My RIKA provides that for me (now, I don't use it more than 30~40% either). There are days when I know I should be training, and I would completely skip it if it were not for the RIKA feedback. It's not like I even watch the screen most times. I just shut my laptop screen down so I can't see anything and then shoot as normal until I feel something notable, then lift and check.
While I score myself with the RIKA, it's tough on scores. I can shoot 91 and 92 on the RIKA (best), where as I frequently see 97/98/99 on live targets (again, best) ~ a 60 shot match seems to be an average of .2~.3 point per shot lower. I've heard that Scatt is the opposite, and can artificially inflate a score above when the person would tend to shoot live. One shooter said it made him feel like a superstar when scoring on a Scatt system. Point is, if you're going to use it for score, learn what the difference is between trainer and real world. Track them separately as they are not interchangeable. |
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EJ
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:12 am Post subject:
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| RobStubbs wrote: | | As an example scatt records for about 10 seconds. |
If you want to evaluate more than 10s you can just change it to what time span you want (I use 20s) - or do you have an older version where this is not possible?
Brian M: I can't say I have the same experience. I have found the scores being lower than live but not with a lot, just a point or two per 10. But as for the rest of your comment, I agree. Especially the part about treating the two as separate entities |
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RobStubbs
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2816
Location: Herts, England, UK
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:53 am Post subject:
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| EJ wrote: | | RobStubbs wrote: | | As an example scatt records for about 10 seconds. |
If you want to evaluate more than 10s you can just change it to what time span you want (I use 20s) - or do you have an older version where this is not possible?
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With respect that misses the point of my post. Scatt is a tool, one of many. There are a lot of things it can do, and do them far better than anything else (and I say scatt because that's what I use). But it can't measure everything and certainly can't replace coaching and observation.
Brian - I partly agree with you but scatt is not about score, and neither is training. If you do dry firing properly it can give you lots of feedback. There's a post here elsewhere I'm sure about how much dry firing Keith Sanderson does for example - I thought it was about 9:1 dry:live.
Rob. |
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Brian M
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 260
Location: Warm Springs, GA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject:
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| RobStubbs wrote: | Brian - I partly agree with you but scatt is not about score, and neither is training. If you do dry firing properly it can give you lots of feedback. There's a post here elsewhere I'm sure about how much dry firing Keith Sanderson does for example - I thought it was about 9:1 dry:live.
Rob. |
Yup, I agree with those comments. I use it most for motivation, I'm more likely to train with my RIKA than dry fire, though I limit how much it's used. That has no bearing on the feedback from dry-fire training, and actually using a RIKA has made me More aware of issues to pay attention to when dry-firing. It's all about motivation for me. The others are just side comments, they account for less than 5% of my RIKA use.
And while Keith hates electronic trainers (different discussion(s)), I still see RIKA use as dry-fire training. Oh, and his ratio, as stated in the video, was 100:1 dry:live. |
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EJ
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject:
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| RobStubbs wrote: |
With respect that misses the point of my post. Scatt is a tool, one of many. There are a lot of things it can do, and do them far better than anything else (and I say scatt because that's what I use). But it can't measure everything and certainly can't replace coaching and observation. |
I did not miss your point, I do understand what an electronic trainer is used for and what it can or can't replace. With my comment (could have been longer for clarification) I was trying to show that you can set the time span longer than 10 seconds and therefore check some of the points you made; approach and breathing
Things I use my scatt for: approach, breathing, dry firing (with the added bonus of information gathering), balance, relaxation, aim time, hold, scoring (scores have a place in training just like all other aspects do), placement, motivation, etc, etc. But like Brian M mentioned, you can use it in very different ways for different training aspects. With or without a target or computer screen or a change in parameters for example.
It's not that I disagree with you in general, it's just that I think electronic trainers can be used for a lot more than just checking progress and getting on top of specific problem areas. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject:
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| Hi once again.Thanks for all the replies to my question they are appreciated.I think the most important thing of all with the electronic training aids is what you/we do with the collated information.Its all well and fine to have masses of new data but acting on it and creating a better result is the main mission at hand.Understanding how to set the thing up when it arrives is surely going to create a new set of hang ups![lol] |
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John Marchant
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Bedfordshire, England
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:19 am Post subject:
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By using any of the electronic training aids, if the feedback obtained and your subsequent analysis means that you are able to identify an area of your shot creation and release process that requires further work and fine tuning, therefore if this has meant that you are now thinking about the shot creation process more, then this has to be a good outcome.
When I use the RIKA with live fire and work hard to try to create a series of well created shots, then I find that the achieved live score is almost the same as the RIKA estimated score.
As Rob has said, all of these devices only record up to the last 10 seconds before shot release and do not give any indication with regards the prior preparation.
A combination of using the Scatt/Rika/Noptel and a video camera, along with the shooters induividual shot feedback can often present a much more complete overall "picture" which can possibly make interpretation easier. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:57 am Post subject:
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| I was told by one of the top shooters in NZ that a video would be be a good idea so I may try that.thanks again for all the advice.id be interested to know if many others use videos/dvds when training. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: Re Scatt usage
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Hello guest,
I am a novice to improving shooter who fires smallbore prone rifle at 50m. I purchased a Scatt almost two years ago as I don't have a coach (wish I did). The Scatt gave me feedback when I "reworked" my prone position last fall. As I live in an area with harsh winters and one public outdoor range suitable for target shooting one hour's time away, I have used the tool in my dry fire sessions too. I have tried to match up my data with the "Ways of the Rifle" book and had success/improved scores. An almost scientific approach to the data interpretation helped. However with me the final test is live fire with the gun in the shoulder. Hope this helps.
Respectfully submitted,
ABoyd57946 |
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