Air Cylinder Screening Procedures?

[Inside Guest]

Without Flaming anyone!

What would You like TSA to know and how would You resolve the issue concerning screening of air cylinders for safety and customer service? When TSA Officials (or Congressional Staffers) read this Forum, what should they learn from the traveling Shooting Sports Athletes? How could this issue be resolved in a way that the safety of the Traveling Public can be assured along with Athletes equipment being screened for safe travel? I'm looking for positive feedback.

If You're not willing to be positive, don't comment!

Lay it out, step by step. (1), (2), (3)

[Inside Guest]

Quest1,

Paragraphs One and Two are helpful. Paragraph Three, not so much. More problem solving, less rant please. Remember the part about knowing your audience...

[David Levene]

As I am extremely unlikely to travel to the US with an airgun this topic doesn't affect me directly.

Can I respectfully suggest however that there is nothing to lose by taking this guest on trust and assuming that he/she is in fact an individual who can feed useful suggestions to those who need to hear them.

Use whatever help you are offerred.

[cmj]

If TSA is concerned that the cylinder is indeed empty and has no foreign substance inside it would be really easy for the manufaturer to stamp the cylinder with the empty weight and all TSA would need to do is weigh it with a cheap postal scale to verify it was empty.

For cylinders in use i would also think that they all have a pretty std weight and all TSA would need would be a table by MFG as to what their cylinders typically weigh

The air could be bled off in front of the TSA inspecter to also show that it was capable of holding air, IE not full of some other substance.

Walther has both steel and aluminum cylinders available, but if could not x-ray the steel one then the aluminum one would become the one of choice

[jhmartin]

A few years ago I saw a power point presentation that had photos of the screens of the scanners of the devices used in airports ... (at the coaches conference? Scott Pilkington??)

It clearly showed that you could indeed inspect the inside of the cylinders for objects.

If, however, the concern now, is that the cylinders may rupture, then simply releasing air as an example would probably not be enough as many cylinders would not be thoroughly inspected. It would take as "Quest1" described, a test to show that you could take these cylinders into space without a rupture, or a purposeful rupture inside of a rifle case to see what damage would occur ... Quest1 ... my guess is that it (a full rifle cylinder) would blow the case open .. a problem there. (Note, only a guess)

I think for the case of the Colorado Springs airport ... the city gets major revenue from the Olympic training center, so a meeting of city officials, OTC officials, and USA Shooting with the airport TSA folks is probably in order to sooth the frayed nerves. Also, maybe a yearly, or even prior to major comps, "training/information" session for the TSA folks at the airport would be in order .... passing along information (in a friendly, helpful manner) is the best avenue, I think.

For the RO's at these events, we try and give everyone opportunity to empty cylinders at the conclusion of the last relays. Shooters also need to be aware,and take responsibility, of not drawing unnecessary attention to possible non-pc articles that they pack in their bags. (Releasing air to draw attention is such an unwanted action)

Maybe USAS should include a page in their match programs (not just for CSPR) about emptying the cylinders after competitions.....

[Guest]

Oxygen cylinders are supplied on board for those who need them and request ahead of time. The aircraft themselve use high pressure air as part of their hydraulic systems. the issue is not the pressure or the pressure vessel, the issue is being able to see inside the cylinder to know what is in there.

[Philadelphia]

Oxygen cylinders are supplied on board for those who need them and request ahead of time. The aircraft themselve use high pressure air as part of their hydraulic systems. the issue is not the pressure or the pressure vessel, the issue is being able to see inside the cylinder to know what is in there.

I think you're missing an opportunity to show the TSA that it's internet posted rule is actually wrong.

The issue really isn't seeing inside a small cylinder. As many have pointed out, you are not required to prove that your cannister of shaving cream packed away in your luggage is actually shaving cream. Same for all other containers in checked luggage. They x-ray all of it and presumably can tell the difference between shampoo, shaving cream, wine, liquor, cookie tins, etc., etc. (everything under the sun that they allow to fly in baggage without looking inside of it), and whatever it is they are afraid of.

Pressure vessels capable of holding 200 or 300 bar are another matter. While passenger carriers do indeed fly with their own cylinders, all of them have been carefully inspected and tested, ad nauseum, with complete documentation, likely filed away in triplicate in their maintenance office, etc.

How TSA got from not allowing passengers to place intact high pressure vessels in checked baggage to a need to look inside them defies reason, but not unusual for the gov't. If a passenger can demonstrate that a small* pressure vessel is empty, there is no legitimate reason to prohibit it from flying in cargo. It is no different from any other small sealed container that can't be looked inside of.

*Small vessels are defined somewhere in the DOT rules and while I don't have the detailed definition at my fingertips at the moment, the cylinder of an airpistol would qualify.

[Ricardo]

How about this: A male DIN attachment that has nothing at the other end. This would be essentially the same as what has your pressure gauge on the end, but without the gauge; just an open tube.Before going to the airport, release the pressure from the cylinder, attach the aforementioned pipe, and submit the cylinder to X-ray screening. This way the interior of the cylinder is 'connected' to the environment, so there's no pressure, no nothing. In common parlance, it's "empty" and open.

[robf]

walther ship purge valves with their cylinders... they simply screw in and allow out any pressure.

that's all that needs to be done to demonstrate empty.

[Quest1]

Quest1,

Paragraphs One and Two are helpful. Paragraph Three, not so much. More problem solving, less rant please. Remember the part about knowing your audience...

I am just expressing reality, which you seem to want to just gloss over. USAS has approached the TSA about the problem and the bottom line is that they don't want to listen. USAS had approached the person who wrote the regulations and he claimed to be an NRA member and there wasn't anything they can tell him about guns. He even said he had called the Gas Institute about the pressurized gas cylinders. USAS checked with the gas institute and they checked their records and TSA had never written, called, or emailed for any information. The people at the top where even less concerned with solving the problem.

I know your trying to find just answers, but you forget that government agencies are foremost run by political entities and if you just approach with just logic and technical answers without some opposing political entity you won't win the battle. Many times the people who write these regulations aren't technical people and they generally resent very much outside people being critical of their regulations. To further illustrate what you will be dealing with I have a friend that works for the Justice Department and many people in that organization who work in Washington think that people shouldn't own guns. He was reading an issue of Guns and Ammo one day and one of the employees saw him reading the magazine on his lunch break and he stopped and told him that he shouldn't be reading magazines like that. He responded that as far as he knew that he still had the freedom to read anything he wanted on his own time.

He also attended a meeting with some of the people in the Justice Department and at the meeting gun control came up in the meeting and he explained that when he went to High School that they would carry their guns in their cars and even in their school lockers and go hunting after school. The people at that meeting didn't believe people ever did that, which illustrates the mindset of the people in Washington.

I have worked with government agencies for many years and many of the government organizations, especially the people at the top are basically there to grow their organizations (or justify their existence), which means writing more regulations, which in turn means gaining more power and money and in turn lessening our freedoms. If you don't understand that then you just as well find a wall and bang your head into it. You will also be asking people to waste time and energy. I worked with a government agency that would ask scientist and engineers to continuously run experiments and tests just to get the one answer they wanted that was more politically acceptable to them. They would get very upset when the answers kept coming out just the opposite from what they wanted.

The TSA agents at the Colorado Springs airport are only responding to the current written regulations. If you read the regulations that pertain to airguns and paintball guns it basically tells you can fly with the airgun in checked baggage, but you can't have the air cylinder with the gun. That would be like trying to transport any other gun with the bolt and firing pin, which basically makes the gun useless.

The technical answers I believe are already mostly out there and I know that the companies have already conducted pressure tests on their cylinders and even destruct tests to see how they will perform. They might need to conduct tests in luggage situations to see what would happen in a pressurized plane and that should clear up any disputes. However, you would think that before someone wrote a regulation they would seek those answers before they write them. If they didn't then the one who wrote the regulations is writing rules that has no meaning. Again the answer is more political and not technical. Since , TSA is not answering most of the people who are making the inquires then again the answer will have to be political pressure.

[Guest]

Only one TSA agent at COS didn"t allow Cylinders to pass, ALL United passengers (all week) where allowed to check cylinders.Another totally different TSA agent for the frontier side of the airport was the only TSA agent not to check them. Too much stink and that might change at all airports.

[hank2222]

not flameing anyone here ..but when the rules are listed on there own website and printed out for them to read if is a problem with traveling with a firearm or air rifle or air pistol etc etc ..

then follow the rules that are listed on the website intill they are change..that the problem for some boss over the people are changeing the rules in mid step and trying go around there own rules for what can and can not be on a plane

[JamesH]

Get the NRA to take the TSA big cheeses out for some good lunches at a country club and thrash out the problem.

On the practical level
-Screw in pressure gauges/pressure release widgets

-Get the TSA, or some standards body, to X-Ray all possible cyclinders and publish what they should look like inside, how much they should weigh and how to verify they are empty.

[Quest1]

Only one TSA agent at COS didn"t allow Cylinders to pass, ALL United passengers (all week) where allowed to check cylinders.Another totally different TSA agent for the frontier side of the airport was the only TSA agent not to check them. Too much stink and that might change at all airports.

One of the parents, who belongs to our club, described what had happened when one of the passenger's released the air from his cylinder in front of the TSA agent. When that happened the manager for those TSA agents heard the commotion he came out and found out what was happening and from that point on any known air cylinders weren't allowed. One of the parent's from our club had to collect the air cylinder's to take back to the OTC for shipping back home. The other parent talked to the TSA manager at the airport and he told him that he didn't know that some of the cylinders where going through and at that point according to the regulations he stopped all known cylinders from going through the airport. He said that they don't have the machines yet to see through the aluminum cylinders, which are available at most airports. He also said that it will be another year before they will get the machine.

USAS has asked the TSA if it was a matter of seeing if there was something in the cylinder then why are they allowing baseball bats through and was told something along the lines not to be a wise ass, which should further illustrate that the bureaucrats aren't interested in hearing about the holes in their thought process being pointed out. Many years ago the TSA used to make passengers turn on their computers or radios to make sure they weren't carrying explosives and know with the advent of the current X-Ray machines you no longer have to do that. The answer that TSA will use for now is that until they get these machines in every airport no cylinders will be allowed.

I would contend that although that it caused some excitement at the COS airport that releasing the air in front of the TSA agents would be comparable. However, for this to happen the word would have to come from the top down, because under the current regulations the local TSA agents and managers don't have the authority or discretion to make those decisions. I know that some cylinder's are still making it through, but that is because many of the agents aren't trained to know what they are looking at.

For those that don't remember why these rules were written was from the airplane that went down in the Florida swamp many years ago. The NTSB speculated that the cargo of large gas cylinders exploded either accidentally or on purpose to bring the plane down in the swamp. It could never be determined what brought the down because very few pieces of the plane could be found.

For those of you going to the Spring and Jr Olympics match and don't know how to get your cylinder's home you can pay the $20 fee to have USAS ship the cylinders home or get a flat rate box from the post office and ship them home for $5 or you can have somebody you now that drove take them home for you. There is a post office at the OTC that you can get the box and packing material.

For those of you worried about raising a stink the cat is already out of the bag and has been for years. TSA is already well aware of the complaints and their solution currently is to wait for those new machines to be installed at the airport. However, these aren't going to solve the problem by themselves. When we were at the 3P airgun championships at Camp Perry this summer a Delta supervisor at the Cleveland Airport that has one of the machines confiscated a young boys rifle cylinder when he released some of the remaining air from the cylinder. The action taken by the Delta supervisor, which according to the TSA manager at COS, was completely against their regulations, maybe not Delta's. The TSA manager at COS said that they are supposed to give you the option of giving the cylinder to somebody else to ship home before the TSA can take the cylinder. However, one of the reasons the regulations aren't being enforced uniformly is because many of the people don't know what they are looking at or the local managers are given the authority to interpret the rules in their own way.

[Guest]

I can say absolutely what you wrote did not happen! Are you just making this up as you go?

[Quest1]

I can say absolutely what you wrote did not happen! Are you just making this up as you go?

I only know what the parent told me after his conversation with the TSA manager at COS. Although I don't know you I do know the parent and he is a deeply honest person and not once in all the years that I have known him have I every had a need to question his honesty. As with anything people see things very differently nor can they see all the things that happen in the background. If you want to call me a lair that is your right and I am not going to waste my time arguing with you nor would I want to waste my time to make up a story.

[pilkguns]

I don't believe the Valujet crash has anything to do with our cylinder issue.
Scott



http://www.tc.faa.gov/act4/insidethefen ... _blake.asx Video of Fire Test at FAA Test Center

The NTSB investigation eventually determined that the fire that downed Flight 592 began in a cargo compartment below the passenger cabin. The cargo compartment's fire suppression amounted to a no-air recycling environment, so a standard fire would have simply run out of air and burned itself out.

The NTSB determined that just before takeoff, expired chemical oxygen generators were placed in the cargo compartment in five boxes marked COMAT (Company-owned material) by ValuJet's maintenance contractor, SabreTech, in contravention of FAA regulations forbidding the transport of hazardous materials in aircraft cargo holds. Failure to cover the firing pins for the generators with the prescribed plastic caps made an accidental activation much more likely. As the Seconds From Disaster episode about the crash explains, rather than fitting firing pins on the canisters, the SabreTech workers just duct taped the cords around the cans, or cut them, and used tape to stick the ends down. It is also possible that the cylindrical, tennis ball can-sized generators were loaded onboard in the mistaken belief that they were just canisters. SabreTech employees indicated on the cargo manifest that the "canisters" were empty, when in fact they were not.

Chemical oxygen generators, when activated, produce oxygen. As a byproduct of the exothermic chemical reaction, they also produce a great quantity of heat. These two together were sufficient not only to start an accidental fire, but also produce the extra oxygen needed to keep the fire burning, made much worse by the presence of combustible aircraft wheels in the hold. NTSB investigators theorized that when the plane experienced a slight jolt while taxiing on the runway, an oxygen canister activated, producing oxygen and heat. Laboratory testing showed that canisters of the same type could heat nearby materials up to 500 °F (260 °C), enough to ignite a smouldering fire. The oxygen from the generators fed the resulting fire in the cargo hold. A pop and jolt heard on the cockpit voice recording and correlated with a brief and dramatic spike in the altimeter reading in the flight data recording were attributed to the sudden cabin pressure change caused by a semi-inflated aircraft wheel in the cargo hold exploding in the fire. (Two main tires and wheels and a nose tire and wheel were also included in the COMAT).

Chemical oxygen generator in commercial airliners

Commercial aircraft provide emergency oxygen to passengers to protect them from drops in cabin pressure. Chemical oxygen generators are not used for the cockpit crew. In narrow body airliners, for each row of seats there are overhead masks and oxygen generators. In wide body airliners, such as the DC-10 and IL-96, the canisters and oxygen masks are mounted in the top portion of the seat backs, since the ceiling is too high above the passengers. If a decompression occurs, the panels are opened either by an automatic pressure switch or by a manual switch, and the masks are released. When the passengers pull down on the mask they remove the retaining pins and trigger the production of oxygen.

The oxidizer core is sodium chlorate (NaClO3), which is mixed with less than 5 percent barium peroxide (BaO2) and less than 1 percent potassium perchlorate (KClO4). The explosives in the percussion cap are a lead styphnate and tetracene mixture. The chemical reaction is exothermic and the exterior temperature of the canister will reach 260 °C (500 °F). It will produce oxygen for 15 to 20 minutes.[1][2] The two-mask generator is approximately 63 mm (2.5 in) in diameter and 223 mm (8.8 in) long. The three-mask generator is approximately 70 mm (2.8 in) in diameter and 250 mm (9.8 in) long.

Accidental activation of improperly shipped expired generators caused the ValuJet Flight 592 crash. An ATA DC-10, Flight 131, was also destroyed while parked at O'Hare Airport, on August 10, 1986. The cause was the accidental activation of an oxygen canister, contained in the back of a broken DC-10 seat, being shipped in the cargo compartment to a repair station. There were no fatalities or injuries because the plane contained no passengers when the fire broke out.