Is 300 bar necessary in ISSF 10M equipment?

[Spencer]

Following on from another thread re air pressure, is 300 bar supply necessary for those pistols and rifles so marked?

I.e., what is the effect of filling these to only 200-220 bar?
Obviously there will be reduced number of shots, but will this affect a shooter in an ISSF event where 100 shots (60 competition + sighters) whould be the max for most shooters?

(this from a troglodyte still using CO2)

[j-team]

Following on from another thread re air pressure, is 300 bar supply necessary for those pistols and rifles so marked?

I.e., what is the effect of filling these to only 200-220 bar?
Obviously there will be reduced number of shots, but will this affect a shooter in an ISSF event where 100 shots (60 competition + sighters) whould be the max for most shooters?

You are right in you're assumption.

300bar would give more shots, that's all.

[Oz]

YMMV but the typical CA pistol cylinder should be able to give 60 shots before dropping any accuracy if you started @ 100 bar.

[luftskytter-]

All the "pro" match guns are regulated, so the pressure is constant anyway. And they also have a capacity of close to 200 rounds, so no problem.

My MG1E AP fills to about 250 BAR, I seldom fill more than about 200, and I don't worry if I start an evenings shooting at less than that. It shoots the same down to about 80 BAR cylinder pressure......

[Jimbo2]

Following on from another thread re air pressure, is 300 bar supply necessary for those pistols and rifles so marked?

I.e., what is the effect of filling these to only 200-220 bar?
Obviously there will be reduced number of shots, but will this affect a shooter in an ISSF event where 100 shots (60 competition + sighters) whould be the max for most shooters?

(this from a troglodyte still using CO2)

Spencer, the higher pressure just gives more shots.

Take for example the Morini 162E1. Filled to 200 bar (via pump or SCUBA tank), you will generally get about 150+ shots. Fill it with more, you get many more.

With the 162. when the pressure drops enough, a little arm blocks the loading lever from opening. In the event that you only have a few shots to go, this can be moved out of the way with your finger (overriding the "safety" feature). In my experience you really have to be trying quite hard to get a Morini to fire a pellet with too little gas (giving the dreaded low shot or perhaps missing the target altogether).

Pretty much any modern CA pistol will give you at least twice the number of shots needed to finish a match. A second screw on cylinder just gives you peace of mind (and potentially less pumping during an extended competition if you have a hand pump).

If you have a hand pump then 200 bar is far more achievable than higher pressures.

So come to the compressed air side, hang up the scales, and forget about putting your CO2 cylinders in the freezer for ever.

[Jimbo2]

Just wanted to add (brain fart):

162E1 comes with 200 bar cylinders, don't overfill beyond.

Guns that have 200 bar cylinders will come with a 200 bar DIN adapter.

Guns that have 300 bar cylinders will come with a 300 bar DIN adapter.

The difference is there is more thread on a 300 bar adapter, therefore it can screw in all the way and seal on the DIN valve. If you attempt to put a 200 bar DIN adapter on a 300 bar DIN valve, the seal won't mate and air will just release from the escape hole on the valve. It's idiot proof.

A 300 bar adapter will work on both a 200 and 300 bar valve.

To avoid waking up with night sweats that the next competition would only have a 300 bar DIN tank rig, one can take a Morini 200 bar DIN adapter and machine off half of the "nut". This will give enough clearance so that you now have a 200/300 bar compatible filling adapter. However you have now removed the idiot proof safety functionality, and you need to watch what you are doing.

[Guest]

Please DO NOT TAMPER with any compressed air (or other gas) equipment! That is a possibly quite severe incident waiting to happen.

[Oz]

Since it's easy to get Hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (actually available up to 700 bar), I've been using that. then I tape a light under the front diffuser and POP! It makes a great noise every time I shoot! Sounds like a real gun going off. Much more manly.

Did you know you can get 8000 shots out of an LP10 cylinder filled to 700 bar of Hydrogen? I am missing an eye and several fingers from one cylinder that didn't hold, but the other one seems to be holding.

[jacques b gros]

Since it's easy to get Hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (actually available up to 700 bar), I've been using that. then I tape a light under the front diffuser and POP! It makes a great noise every time I shoot! Sounds like a real gun going off. Much more manly.

Did you know you can get 8000 shots out of an LP10 cylinder filled to 700 bar of Hydrogen? I am missing an eye and several fingers from one cylinder that didn't hold, but the other one seems to be holding.

Since I almost lost my hand when, at the advanced age of nearly 13, a home made bomb went off at the wrong time, I don't play 'round with pressurized stuff.

My club rented a 50 liters cylinder of Hydrogen at 200 bar and parked the thing in the club house. Wanna fill? Bring your adapter and help your self.

Hydrogen does not cares for temperature, will not react to anything and will snuff a fire. Probably will snuff you too in the process, but that's life.

[talladega]

Since it's easy to get Hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (actually available up to 700 bar), I've been using that. then I tape a light under the front diffuser and POP! It makes a great noise every time I shoot! Sounds like a real gun going off. Much more manly.

Did you know you can get 8000 shots out of an LP10 cylinder filled to 700 bar of Hydrogen? I am missing an eye and several fingers from one cylinder that didn't hold, but the other one seems to be holding.

Thats a joke right?

[Richard H]

Since it's easy to get Hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (actually available up to 700 bar), I've been using that. then I tape a light under the front diffuser and POP! It makes a great noise every time I shoot! Sounds like a real gun going off. Much more manly.

Did you know you can get 8000 shots out of an LP10 cylinder filled to 700 bar of Hydrogen? I am missing an eye and several fingers from one cylinder that didn't hold, but the other one seems to be holding.

Since I almost lost my hand when, at the advanced age of nearly 13, a home made bomb went off at the wrong time, I don't play 'round with pressurized stuff.

My club rented a 50 liters cylinder of Hydrogen at 200 bar and parked the thing in the club house. Wanna fill? Bring your adapter and help your self.

Hydrogen does not cares for temperature, will not react to anything and will snuff a fire. Probably will snuff you too in the process, but that's life.

You sure it's Hydrogen, last I heard Hydrogen won't put a fire put and it will react with lots of stuff.

[jacques b gros]

Should not post anything when sleepy. Take Hydrogen out, put Nitrogen.

Sorry.

[robf]

300 will give more shots, but all the reg tuning experts I speak to just suggest sticking to 200 bar...even with standard regs... on a low power target gun 200 will give you plenty of shots anyway.

Advising to use any other propellant than air is bad advice, mistakes can be made... i've seen pics of guns that were lucky not have killed their owner when they've experimented with something other than air... not only that, the sealing properties can change with different propellants than air.

[Hemmers]

There is a thread here by an extremely experienced shooter and shooting journalist. The simple message is do not use gases other than air. Standard, dry, breathing air like you get in a dive bottle.

PCP guns are designed to use standard atmospheric air.
Don't mess around with other gases - whether inert or not.

And yes, the Hydrogen post was a joke or the user would have lost more than a few fingers.

[jacques b gros]

If someone wants to go against chemistry, ok, but air is more damaging, at the same conditions (pressure ant temperature) then Nitrogen.

Remenber that oxidation is what screws up most of things. And compressed air is 80% nitro plus some 16% oxi plus whatever is mixed in the atmosphere, including pollution...

[Hemmers]

That depends on where you source your air from. Breathing quality dive air is usually filtered and dried to some extent to remove water and particulate matter from the air.

If you use a hand pump on the other hand, then yes, you will be pumping in whatever is in the air - PM, water vapour, etc.

What does chemistry have to do with it though? The air cylinders in PCP guns are frequently aluminium or stainless - which aren't going to rust before they go out-of-date.
Furthermore, we're talking about the manufacturer's recommendation. The guns are designed and produced to use plain air.

There is little to no benefit to mixing gases. The guns outshoot the people with plain air. Plus, you never know, it may invalidate both the warranty of the equipment, or your shooting insurance (depending on who provides it and if they have any nasty, niggly clauses in there) by using non-recommended gases.

On a sombre point, - if the worst happened and the cylinder catastrophically failed, it would be little consolation to the family that the gas was inert or oxygen free.
It would be further distressing if the life insurance company (who's payout was supposed to be covering the mortage or whatever now the bread-winner was no longer earning) pulled out some small-print clause that said because the victim was using gases other than that recommended by the manufacturer of the pressure vessel concerned, they weren't paying out, as it was unreasonable misadventure or something.

I don't think I've ever heard of an in-date PCP cylinder failing from rust or some reason related to using plain air as compared to a different gas. The only major failures have been those related to manufacturing faults - such as prompted the Anschutz recall last year or the year before.

[jacques b gros]

Filtered for particulates and water, ok. But you still have oxigen, who is in the bad habit of oxidating things.

GO NITRO!!! ;-))

[TerryKuz]

To the original poster. I use a 300bar supply to fill a 200bar cylinder on an Anschutz 9003. I fill to 200bar, and get 200 plus shots, before I refill. I actually refill before it is very low, so I guess I could get 300 shots if I wanted to find the limit before refilling. SO I don't think 300bar on the firearm is necessary for a regulated rifle.

And for additional discussion, on the merits of a fill tank./
I may be wrong on this point, so someone can correct me, I was told that I can fill the Anschutz cylinder about 30 times from the 88cu.ft. SCBA tank. So I guess I will get 9000 rounds per master tank refill.

[RobStubbs]

Filtered for particulates and water, ok. But you still have oxigen, who is in the bad habit of oxidating things.

GO NITRO!!! ;-))

Yes oxygen oxidises things, but it's generally the dissolved oxygen in water not the dry oxygen in air. Air cylinders last many years with no problems so don't mess with things that work and aren't broken. As Hemmers points out, the pitfalls could be disasterous.

Rob.

[luftskytter-]

Talked to some research lab guys who have easy access to nitrogen.
Works just fine;
remember air is approx. 80 % nitrogen,
most of the rest is oxygen.