TargetTalk

a place to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:51 pm 
Dear All,

Yes I know... there are lots of threads already regarding choosing a rifle - I honestly have tried the forum search - and found loads of excellent information - just not quite what I was looking for....

(originally I had asked this at the end of "Anschutz 1807 Olympic - need insight and advice" but I think it's clearer as a seperate question)

I'm struggling with the Anschutz numbering schemes / chronology and would really appreciate some help and advice.
The Anschutz website and catalogue are fine for current offerings but I'm looking for a good but reasonably priced second hand prone Anschutz similar to a 1911 that I used to use.

Most of the dealers I've come accross have a stack of "Match 54" rifles, a few 1403s and I've also found an 1807 that looks interesting.

In "Anschutz 1807 Olympic - need insight and advice" one of your members gave some excellent feedback and descriptions which I'm definately taking on-board.

I've found lots of information about how to date your rifle
(e.g. http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Anschutz.htm)
and a useful but incomplete list of Anschutz items:
(
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi ... 1&offset=0
)


The questions I really have are...
1) can some one point me to a simple comparitive overview of different Anschutz? (not just these three if possible...)
2) is a 1403 better or worse than an 1807 or a generic labelled Match 54
3) Is there anything I should really be looking for / avoiding?

I have the feeling that some of the dealers will happily stear you towards the max priced item and I'm not really sure if the sales pitch is good info or not.... e.g. I've been told that an "X" stamp on the barel means it is a better barrel.... no idea if it's true or not...

(personaly, I'm looking for a good rifle for indoor prone shooting with 1/6th minute sites. 3P might still be interesting if it's possible but this isn't driving the choice at all. I wouldn't class myself close to your expert catagory at all but I used to be able to hit 19 out of 20 tens before a few years break)

any help would be very greatly apprecited


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 Post subject: Used rifles
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:05 pm 
Any of Deiter's rifles that the model number ends with 07,12.or13 should do the trick as long as they have been well cared for and not shot by an olympic hopeful. This last because of the probability that many thousand rounds have gone down the barrel during the intense training the top shooters do. Good Shooting Bill Horton


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 Post subject: Used rifles
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:06 pm 
Any of Deiter's rifles that the model number ends with 07,12.or13 should do the trick as long as they have been well cared for and not shot by an olympic hopeful. This last because of the probability that many thousand rounds have gone down the barrel during the intense training the top shooters do. Good Shooting Bill Horton


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 Post subject: Choosing rifles
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:33 pm 
Many thanks Bill. I've seen discussions on this forum saying the 54 action is superiour to the 64 which is primarily for initial school/club training etc.
Any idea how I work out which action is in which rifle (preferably without going to each dealer in the country and dismantling their rifles :)
Is there any logic / pattern to the Anschutz numbering scheme?
Many thanks


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 Post subject: Anschutz list
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:39 pm 
Minor correction to link for the useful (to me) list of Anschutz products.... albeit incomplete and without giving an opinion of pros/cons
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi ... z&offset=0


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am
Posts: 3177
Location: Herts, England, UK
If he spots this thread, I'm pretty sure Tim S is well experienced re anshutz model numbers and details etc, although he could be shooting at Bisley this week at our rifle nationals.

I have an 1813 supermatch and that's a great gun. I have no idea how great the barrel is technically but the shots seem to always go where the sights are pointing. I'll probably get mine tested at eley next year and if I can afford it, get some batch tested ammo for it as well.

Re. Bills comment about barrel life / wear - you should be able to get the barrel bore-scoped to look for signs of wear and to be honest you could always get one and get the barrel replaced anyway - assuming you get a reduced price for the extra wear.

Rob.


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 Post subject: Aschultz choices
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:35 pm 
very jealous - I miss Bisley! One day I'll get back to the UK in time for the summer season....

TimS provided some excellent answers yesterday.

I have to say the quality of responses on this forum is excellent.
Despite hours of Googling I haven't found a simple decode of the Anschultz numbers so I fear it isn't easy...

The barel lengths, trigger types, overall weights etc are somewhat overwhelming for the uneducated!

There also seems to be a difference in availability of rifle types between the US, UK and Western European market


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 Post subject: Post Subject
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:41 pm 
All the models with the last two numbersare model 54 actions. The 64 reciever models do not appear to be suitable for the advanced shooter or one who intends to shoot against top competitors.altho I have personally coached a 12 year old girl that shot 100 with 7 centers in a local match beating every 54 on the line with her 64. Good Shooting Bill Horton


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 Post subject: Post Subject
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:42 pm 
All the models with the last two numbers are model 54 actions. The 64 reciever models do not appear to be suitable for the advanced shooter or one who intends to shoot against top competitors.altho I have personally coached a 12 year old girl that shot 100 with 7 centers in a local match beating every 54 on the line with her 64. Good Shooting Bill Horton


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 Post subject: Apoligy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:48 pm 
Something seems to be malfunctioning with my computer. Possible operator malfunction but I get an incorrect access code and when I type in the corrected code I'm getting two posts. Sorry, Good Shooting Bill Horton


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 Post subject: Aschultz choices
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:50 am 
Just found this from "Hemmers" on another thread...

Anyone able to expand on this for me to add info on the 14xx and 18xx, xx11 etcs?

Pros and Cons very greatly appreciated!

Regretably the 20xx seem out of my price class for now and I'm only seeing "14xx", "18xx" and "Match 54" on with our local dealers.

Quote from thread "Away from shooting for 28 years. Prone update requested."


"In essence there are two choices of action:

19-series (round - like the Match 54)
20-series (square)

and then a multitude of barrels:
03 - lightest, for juniors. Most will outgrow them quickly
07 - light, a common choice for club guns and juniors
12 - the "Ladies barrel". A premium, heavy barrel, but lighter than the "13" to help conform with ISSF weight regs for Ladies rifles, and to suit the typically lighter build of female shooters
13 - the full-weight Premium barrel (usually marked up as "xx13 Supermatch")

So when you see "1913", It's a 19- action with a -13 barrel, a "1903" is a 19- action with an -03 barrel, a "2007" is a 20- action with an -07 barrel, etc." <end of quote>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:16 am 
Bert,

further to yesterday.

If you want a prone rifle, look for an 1811 modle as well as 1911. The 1811 is the predecessor of the 1911; it has the same, action, bolt, trigger, and stock. The only difference is that the foresight fits onto a small dovetailed block bolted onto the barrel, whereas the 1911 foresight slides onto grooves cut straight into the barrel. All Anschutz target rfiles marked 14xx, or 18xx have this type of foresight.

The first two number indicate the production series, the relative age; 14xx = 1954-1980, 18xx = 1980-87, 19xx=1987-present. The second two idicate the stock/barrel configuration. Someone has explained these for me already. The basic configurations haven't changed, but the stocks have become more sophisticated with time.

Models ending xx07, xx11, xx13, in fact anything that isn't xx03 is a Match 54 action. The Match 54 hasn't changed much over the years, the basic dimensions have remained the same (so stocks can be swapped VERY easily), but the trigger and firing pin and have been upadted from time to time. The last major change can in 1976, when a new trigger was introduced, this is still here today.

Barrels are fairly simple. Anschutz make two basic types; heavy (69cm long x 24mm dia), which is fitted to xx11, xx13, and xx10 models; and light (66cm long x 22mm dia) fitted to models xx07, the 1912, and xx09.

If you can find one for the right price, I'd recommend an 1913 Supermatch (or it's 1813 predecessor); this has the same barrel as the 1911, but the stock is a thumbhole type and it has a multi-adjustable hook butt. It does everything a 1911 does, but the more sophisticated stock can be adjusted to give a closer fit at the shoulder and cheek. A 1413 would be OK if you can find a late modle that has an adjustable cheekpiece.

Tim S
Exeter UK


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 Post subject: Anschutz choices
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:53 am 
Fantastic feedback guys.
I've been happily browsing the forum, what an amaing collection of experienced shooters generously sharing their knowledge - my compliments and thanks to you all!

Bert


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 Post subject: Anschutz rifle weights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:11 am 
Is there any way to differentiate from these codes what weight a rifle is likely to be?

I have been trying a number rifles of different club members (i don't yet have my own) to see what suits me best. The one that I am most comfortable with the owner has described as an Aschutz ladies' rifle. (I am going to try and get the code for it on Thursday night)

This is the rifle that I have been most comfortable, and put together the tightest groups with.

I have done alot of shooting using an SA80 A2 service rifle, but alot of the rifles I have tried feel very heavy when shooting unsupported in the prone position.
Is this just something I will have to get used to?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:38 pm 
beats wrote:
Is there any way to differentiate from these codes what weight a rifle is likely to be?

I have been trying a number rifles of different club members (i don't yet have my own) to see what suits me best. The one that I am most comfortable with the owner has described as an Aschutz ladies' rifle. (I am going to try and get the code for it on Thursday night)

This is the rifle that I have been most comfortable, and put together the tightest groups with.

I have done alot of shooting using an SA80 A2 service rifle, but alot of the rifles I have tried feel very heavy when shooting unsupported in the prone position.
Is this just something I will have to get used to?


Yes, it is possible to estimate the weight of an Anschutz Match 54 from the model number. The heaviest is the Supermatch Free Rifle (models 1413, 1813, or 1913 depending on age); these have a heavy barrel, and a large thumbhole 3-P stock. Weight is about 14lb in prone trim. Nect would be the Prone model (1411, 1811, or 1911 depending on age); these have the same heavy barrel as the Supermatch, but a more basic prone-only stock. Weight is about 12-13lb. The 1912 Sport rifle (a fairly recent model) has a lighter barrel with a ladies' size Supermatch stock. Weight is about 12-13lb. The lightest Match 54 is the UIT Standard (models 1407, 1809, or 1907) this has the same lighter barrel a s the 1912, but with a much simpler 3-P stock; weight is 10-11lb.

Yes target rifles are heavy. Unlike service rifles, they don't have to be lugged around combat zones, only on rifle ranges. The extra weight gives stability, and is due to larger stocks (more comfortable, repeatbale hold) and a bigger barrel (more consistent vibration).

This may sound like a silly question, but you are using a shooting sling and a shooting jacket aren't you? A 10-14lb rifle without either will seem very heavy. When the sling has been adjusted properly the rifle should feel almost weightless, as the sling supports the weight. Most adult men chose the heavier Supermatch or Prone rifles for stability.

Tim S
UK


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:20 am 
Anonymous wrote:

Yes, it is possible to estimate the weight of an Anschutz Match 54 from the model number. The heaviest is the Supermatch Free Rifle (models 1413, 1813, or 1913 depending on age); these have a heavy barrel, and a large thumbhole 3-P stock. Weight is about 14lb in prone trim. Nect would be the Prone model (1411, 1811, or 1911 depending on age); these have the same heavy barrel as the Supermatch, but a more basic prone-only stock. Weight is about 12-13lb. The 1912 Sport rifle (a fairly recent model) has a lighter barrel with a ladies' size Supermatch stock. Weight is about 12-13lb. The lightest Match 54 is the UIT Standard (models 1407, 1809, or 1907) this has the same lighter barrel a s the 1912, but with a much simpler 3-P stock; weight is 10-11lb.

Yes target rifles are heavy. Unlike service rifles, they don't have to be lugged around combat zones, only on rifle ranges. The extra weight gives stability, and is due to larger stocks (more comfortable, repeatbale hold) and a bigger barrel (more consistent vibration).

This may sound like a silly question, but you are using a shooting sling and a shooting jacket aren't you? A 10-14lb rifle without either will seem very heavy. When the sling has been adjusted properly the rifle should feel almost weightless, as the sling supports the weight. Most adult men chose the heavier Supermatch or Prone rifles for stability.

Tim S
UK

Hi tim,

No, we're not allowed to use a sling in our matches. I am looking out for a jacket at the mo, but will not be allowed to fit a sling to it?!

Thanks for the advice about the prone position rifles. Is there any particular models that are better as an all round rifle if I'm hoping to move into shooting in a couple of positions?

Trawling through various websites etc I have seen mentions of 3 position rifles. Are these only different in that they are lighter; or is there more to it than this?

Sorry, I'm a complete novice to this civvy style of shooting and there are so many disciplines out there! It was so much easier when I had someone running me up and down a range all day long and all I had to choose was the sight setting!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:54 pm 
[quote="beatsHi tim,

No, we're not allowed to use a sling in our matches. I am looking out for a jacket at the mo, but will not be allowed to fit a sling to it?!

Thanks for the advice about the prone position rifles. Is there any particular models that are better as an all round rifle if I'm hoping to move into shooting in a couple of positions?

Trawling through various websites etc I have seen mentions of 3 position rifles. Are these only different in that they are lighter; or is there more to it than this?

Sorry, I'm a complete novice to this civvy style of shooting and there are so many disciplines out there! It was so much easier when I had someone running me up and down a range all day long and all I had to choose was the sight setting!!![/quote]

You aren't allowed to use a sling!!

Exactly what sort of competitions are you shooting? Most people who shoot Prone competitions with an Anschutz target rifle (and a shooting jacket) will also use a sling to steady their aim. I presume that you're in the UK (who else uses the SA80); most clubs that shoot Prone will do so under National Smallbore Rifle Association (NSRA) rules, which definitely allow a sling. Are you shooting a sporting rifle?

3-Position rifles are intended for Olympic-style shooting - Prone, Standing, and Kneeling in formal competition. 3-P rifles are not noticeably heavier than Prone-only target rifles, in fact they're often heavier. The Anschutz 1813 (14-ish lb) is a typical top-end 3-P rifle. 3-P rifles have special stocks that can be adjusted (butt length, butt height, cheekpiece height, etc) not only to fit different sized shooters but also to fit a shooter's body in all 3 positions.

Most NSRA prone competitors will use a 3-Position rifle. Prone is part of 3-P.

It is almost impossible to suggest a suitable rifle without knowing what sort of shooting you are actually doing. An Anschutz 1813 is a good chocie for Prone or 3-P competition, but far too heavy for LSR or Gallery rifle (action type) competitions.

Tim S
UK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:03 am 
The matches we shoot are indoor at a distance of 25yds, shooting off carpeted wooden ramps with nice soft cushions to rest your elbows on. The club is part of a closed league in N.Ireland.

I've only joined the club but i know alot of the other members are also members of other clubs that i imagine would then be shooting under the NSRA rules. Unfortunately I'm going to have to get myself known in the circle im in at the minute, before trying to get myself proposed into another NSRA club. (No choice with the security situation over here but to go with the flow.)

The club have mentioned that if i keep my eye out for a rifle that i like they will look into signing it off for me. But as I have no experience outside of service rifles, i'm trying to look into what would be the best all round rifle for me.

A club member let me shoot with his Anschutz 1807 last night and the rifle really seemed to suit me. Reading the above posts though, this would seem to be a fairly light barrel. Would a barrel of this weight/size be too light for putting in good groups when i hopefully move onto longer distances?

With many other sports there is a big drive to bring new people in, through explanitary articles in magazines etc etc. This shooting lark though is very daunting and confusing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:56 am 
Why not get in touch with Intershoot in N Ireland? They must have some second hand rifles you could try/look at.

Their website is intershoot.co.uk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:35 am 
beats wrote:
The matches we shoot are indoor at a distance of 25yds, shooting off carpeted wooden ramps with nice soft cushions to rest your elbows on. The club is part of a closed league in N.Ireland.

I've only joined the club but i know alot of the other members are also members of other clubs that i imagine would then be shooting under the NSRA rules. Unfortunately I'm going to have to get myself known in the circle im in at the minute, before trying to get myself proposed into another NSRA club. (No choice with the security situation over here but to go with the flow.)

The club have mentioned that if i keep my eye out for a rifle that i like they will look into signing it off for me. But as I have no experience outside of service rifles, i'm trying to look into what would be the best all round rifle for me.

A club member let me shoot with his Anschutz 1807 last night and the rifle really seemed to suit me. Reading the above posts though, this would seem to be a fairly light barrel. Would a barrel of this weight/size be too light for putting in good groups when i hopefully move onto longer distances?

With many other sports there is a big drive to bring new people in, through explanitary articles in magazines etc etc. This shooting lark though is very daunting and confusing.


Indoors at 25 yards is standard for most NSRA shooting. Plenty of indoor ranges have carpeted firing points. Not using a sling is odd though. There are certainly clubs in NI that shoot standard NSRA prone. I was taught to shoot by a fellow from Lisburn.

An 1807 isn't a bad rifle. The 26in barrel is lighter than the Anschutz 27in barrel, but only by about 1lb. By any standards it is still a heavy target barrel and will be quite capable at 50metres or 100yards, the regular .22 long range target distances. The 1807 has a basic 3-Position stock, it can be used successfully for prone. Not that many men will use an 1807 as the whole rifle (not just the barrel) is on the lighter side. A hevaier rifle such as the Supermatch also has a better stock that will give a more comfortable and repeatable hold.

I'd suggest holding off on the rifle, until you find a more conventional club. Then you can get experience oif shooting with a sling, and will be able to make a better informed choice about what model rifle you would like.

Tim S
UK


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