I started to get interested in air pistol a month or two ago when my wife got me a Gammo Compact as a gift (and with the astronomical rise of prices of firearms ammo, the gift turned out to be very timely). The Gammo shoots pretty darn good for what it cost and I've got my 5 shot groups down to around 1/4" to 3/8" at 10M on good days with decent pellets.
I bought a used match grade gun to plink with and practice with for firearms and find my groups growing over time rather than getting better. At first I was doing very well with it but compared to the Gammo, it seems to weigh a ton (1,300 some odd grams) with all the weight out front. The gun still does incredibly small groups from a vise, so I know it's doing its part. Due to its weight and balance, I find my hold to seem to grow increasingly unsteady day by day instead of the other way around.
So, some questions:
How do you experts hold those things? I've shot firearms one handed well enough by this point but the balance of the AP is entirely different. The AP with the weight so far forward is a very different animal. Is this trouble common for us newcomers? Are there any "tricks" that I must be missing?
Next, can someone point me to a source to buy a quality DVD to get started (or restarted) on the right foot with AP and grow from there? I doubt I'll find a coach and I expect I'm far far beyond the age where someone would take an interest in teaching me anyway. I've had the traditional marksmanship training in the military but would like to get to the "next level."
Thanks.
Holding a "heavy" air pistol
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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lurking guest
Holding a "heavy" air pistol
Coaching or instruction:
Our host kindly provides http://www.pilkguns.com/menu_coaching.shtml
Other sites:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
http://www.targetshooting.ca/
Air pistols tend to feel nose heavy; it's the nature of the beast. Some balance differently, but you need to handle them. I would say stick with the Gamo, for now.
If you are shooting groups of less than 1/2" at 10 meters fairly regularly, then adjust the sights to bring the group to the center and we will soon be reading of you in world class competitions.
Our host kindly provides http://www.pilkguns.com/menu_coaching.shtml
Other sites:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
http://www.targetshooting.ca/
Air pistols tend to feel nose heavy; it's the nature of the beast. Some balance differently, but you need to handle them. I would say stick with the Gamo, for now.
If you are shooting groups of less than 1/2" at 10 meters fairly regularly, then adjust the sights to bring the group to the center and we will soon be reading of you in world class competitions.
Indeed! 1/2" or less groups at 10m would put you into the ultra-elite shooting class. Keep 60 shots in that size grouping and you will have yourself a new world record to boot.
There's also no need to upgrade to any different pistol. Take that Gamo to the Olympics and bring home the gold! It sounds like you have somehow stumbled across a combination that works for you. Go with it.
There's also no need to upgrade to any different pistol. Take that Gamo to the Olympics and bring home the gold! It sounds like you have somehow stumbled across a combination that works for you. Go with it.
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
Well, I'm not ready for the olympics just yet (although your responses are very encouraging). In addition to having trouble raising the front heavy load of bricks (you would call it a typical AP -- to me it feels heavy, ha ha), my groups do move around the target from group to group. I'll post a picture of what's typical of a couple sets of five shot groups when I can dig out a digital camera.
Here's my practice routine (might seem weird but I'm practicing for 25 yard firearms with the AP) -- at 50 feet (my basement is about 60' front to back, but there are some shelves in the way on one end so I line up with the muzzle 50' from the target) try to obtain a consistent grip and stance, pay some short homage to NPA as best as I know how (which is not very well) and shoot a five shot group. Walk to target and make mental note as to whether my calls bear any resemblance to what's on the target and mark the hits with a pencil (so I can see the new hits to come). Do this again with another 5 shot group. If things are going well, replace target as the next set will be hard to score. If I'm not warmed up yet or not having a good day, do again on the same target. I usually fire 1 or 2 hundred pellets this way. Target is a "post it" note of varying colors -- whatever is handy. I'm trying to find black ones.
At the end (now pretty well warmed up and satisfied that I'm in the"zone" as best as I will be that day), I move up to 10M and turn off the light above where I stand (so my sights become like a shadow on the lighted target). Five round groups and check target as above. I shoot another 100 or so pellets like this. The groups are tight but are almost never on the exact same place on the target telling me that I am not doing something consistently that I should be doing.
Am I still headed for olympic gold? -- ha ha. I didn't think so. Maybe they will let me warm up with a hundred or so pellets at 50' and then move up and turn off the light??? I will go for a rule change -- lol. (The exercise does have a purpose for me to reinforce follow through that I can see, but might be a little unconventional?)
I have read the materials Scott has on his website but there's a long chasm between book knowlege and doing. That's why I think a DVD would help. I will be joining a local CMP/NRA club next month to begin competitions and hope to start off right (to date I've only competed in the military and what we do is a different style altogether -- two hand grip at charging ivans -- might also be why holding the AP one handed seems very heavy).
Thank you both again for your help. If what you say holds true, when the guy from Philadelphia captures the gold you can say you gave him his start -- ha ha.
Here's my practice routine (might seem weird but I'm practicing for 25 yard firearms with the AP) -- at 50 feet (my basement is about 60' front to back, but there are some shelves in the way on one end so I line up with the muzzle 50' from the target) try to obtain a consistent grip and stance, pay some short homage to NPA as best as I know how (which is not very well) and shoot a five shot group. Walk to target and make mental note as to whether my calls bear any resemblance to what's on the target and mark the hits with a pencil (so I can see the new hits to come). Do this again with another 5 shot group. If things are going well, replace target as the next set will be hard to score. If I'm not warmed up yet or not having a good day, do again on the same target. I usually fire 1 or 2 hundred pellets this way. Target is a "post it" note of varying colors -- whatever is handy. I'm trying to find black ones.
At the end (now pretty well warmed up and satisfied that I'm in the"zone" as best as I will be that day), I move up to 10M and turn off the light above where I stand (so my sights become like a shadow on the lighted target). Five round groups and check target as above. I shoot another 100 or so pellets like this. The groups are tight but are almost never on the exact same place on the target telling me that I am not doing something consistently that I should be doing.
Am I still headed for olympic gold? -- ha ha. I didn't think so. Maybe they will let me warm up with a hundred or so pellets at 50' and then move up and turn off the light??? I will go for a rule change -- lol. (The exercise does have a purpose for me to reinforce follow through that I can see, but might be a little unconventional?)
I have read the materials Scott has on his website but there's a long chasm between book knowlege and doing. That's why I think a DVD would help. I will be joining a local CMP/NRA club next month to begin competitions and hope to start off right (to date I've only competed in the military and what we do is a different style altogether -- two hand grip at charging ivans -- might also be why holding the AP one handed seems very heavy).
Thank you both again for your help. If what you say holds true, when the guy from Philadelphia captures the gold you can say you gave him his start -- ha ha.
That is some good shooting if you can hold .25-.5" 5 shot groups one handed. Some air pistols are so front heavy for people that like to let the gun ride their hand more so than actually gripping the grip like a recoiling gun. There are so many variations and weight distribution setups on so many pistols some are bound to suit each of us better than others. Sounds like the Gamo Compact is what you like and it is much smaller than a full size 10m pistol. My Aeron is the largest pistol I have including my centerfires.
As for the groups those are great groups as it is, perhaps you just need to practice your follow through some more to get it refined. I find with my 10m air pistol and rifle that the fast lock time is nice but the velocity is still very low so maintaining the sight picture seems to be most promounced on these pieces compared to faster recoiling guns.
BTW- you never mentioned what type of pistol you have thats so heavy. Mine weighs 2.5 lbs.
Bo
As for the groups those are great groups as it is, perhaps you just need to practice your follow through some more to get it refined. I find with my 10m air pistol and rifle that the fast lock time is nice but the velocity is still very low so maintaining the sight picture seems to be most promounced on these pieces compared to faster recoiling guns.
BTW- you never mentioned what type of pistol you have thats so heavy. Mine weighs 2.5 lbs.
Bo
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
Attched is a picture of a target I fooled with yesterday. It's not the best but happened to be the last one I shot at so it was still hanging instead of in the trash.
The first five shots are a group bigger than the penny and centered pretty much on the center of the target. Fair enough. The second set is the smaller group down low, but maybe smaller than the penny or about the same size. This is what I was talking about where I can shoot small groups, but they tend to move on the target.
The heavy air pistol is a Walther CP5 that I love to shoot but it is heavy compared to the Gammo. It is very accurate. When I first got it I was doing very well, but my arm gets tired very quickly and those sights start to move -- and for the most part I'm pretty strong with a very strong grip. It weighs just over 1300 gms (which if my math is right is about 3 lbs.). Maybe I just have to be more patient getting used to that weight out there. Was hoping that I was not alone with the issue and there was some "easy answer" (of course not) ;) .
Anyway, back to the target. Yes, I shoot one handed and I don't consider that target to be anything particularly special once I get warmed up. On a really good day, I can do better than that for quite a while at a time. If it's really that good, anybody in the Philadelphia area willing to coach me? Maybe we both go to the olympics -- lol. With the Gammo -- lol.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the advice and comments.
The first five shots are a group bigger than the penny and centered pretty much on the center of the target. Fair enough. The second set is the smaller group down low, but maybe smaller than the penny or about the same size. This is what I was talking about where I can shoot small groups, but they tend to move on the target.
The heavy air pistol is a Walther CP5 that I love to shoot but it is heavy compared to the Gammo. It is very accurate. When I first got it I was doing very well, but my arm gets tired very quickly and those sights start to move -- and for the most part I'm pretty strong with a very strong grip. It weighs just over 1300 gms (which if my math is right is about 3 lbs.). Maybe I just have to be more patient getting used to that weight out there. Was hoping that I was not alone with the issue and there was some "easy answer" (of course not) ;) .
Anyway, back to the target. Yes, I shoot one handed and I don't consider that target to be anything particularly special once I get warmed up. On a really good day, I can do better than that for quite a while at a time. If it's really that good, anybody in the Philadelphia area willing to coach me? Maybe we both go to the olympics -- lol. With the Gammo -- lol.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the advice and comments.
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You're in a great place right now. Most will take years to get their groupings that tight.
The first thing you MUST do is to get some 10m AP targets. Next is for you to choose a 'hold'. The choices are:
1) Center Hold: A bit old-school, but will get the job done.
2) 6 Hold: 2nd oldest, also has fallen a bit out of favor
3) Nygord Sub-6 Hold: The light created from either side of the front sight when lined up with the back, is about the same space that you would see from the bottom of the black target center and the top of the front sight.
4) Deep Sub-6 Hold: Seems to be en vogue. It's a point that varies between shooter to shooter. The point is that you choose this area and get used to holding the front sight in that area.
I put this together a while ago to illustrate it better.
Regardless, you need to get some 10m AP targets for your next step!
Oz
The first thing you MUST do is to get some 10m AP targets. Next is for you to choose a 'hold'. The choices are:
1) Center Hold: A bit old-school, but will get the job done.
2) 6 Hold: 2nd oldest, also has fallen a bit out of favor
3) Nygord Sub-6 Hold: The light created from either side of the front sight when lined up with the back, is about the same space that you would see from the bottom of the black target center and the top of the front sight.
4) Deep Sub-6 Hold: Seems to be en vogue. It's a point that varies between shooter to shooter. The point is that you choose this area and get used to holding the front sight in that area.
I put this together a while ago to illustrate it better.
Regardless, you need to get some 10m AP targets for your next step!
Oz
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lurking guest
Painting with a very broad brush:"Here's my practice routine . . . shoot a five shot group. Walk to target. . .
Target is a "post it" note of varying colors -- whatever is handy. I'm trying to
find black ones. . . . move up to 10M . . . I shoot another 100 or so pellets
like this. . .
I am hardly one to criticise, but you are shooting too much! You need to spend more time dry firing (does the Gamo allow that without cocking the pump?). Do it against a blank wall, that will let you focus on the front sight and alignment, use short 15 minute sessions (if you shoot 200 pellets, then you have time for dry firing!). Dry firing will help your grip and trigger. Use a target to help get your NPA and then dry fire on it.
Try live firing only three times a week and keep it down to 60 shots or less for a while. For some live fire, just shoot for group size, don't worry about score - set your goals in terms of that for now. Use blank targets, no markings. If you make your goal (20 rounds under 45mm), reward yourself with a real target and set a similar goal (20 rounds scoring 8 or less).
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
Thanks to you both for the continued long distance training :)
Oz -- I will buy some decent 10M AP targets. I was hoping to go cheap with some substitute but you have convinced me that doing that is a fool's economy. I still have it in my head to photocopy off a ream of them ;) (when you look up cheapskate in the dictionary, my picture is there). I do use a sub-six hold. I'll experiment with the others you mention -- thanks again.
Lurking guest -- it's funny how it comes full circle -- I find the AP very attractive to eliminate the boredom of dry firing for firearms practice. As in all things, there is no free lunch. I will follow your advice. I like the idea of live fire as the "reward" for achieving dry fire goals. The Gammo does not have a way to dry fire without charging its pump, but I'll figure something out. If nothing else, I'll just shoot it without pellets.
For the blank target, I assume the object is to establish NPA with no aiming point? Otherwise, how do I hit a 4.5cm group while aiming at nothing -- just mentally divide the blank target or is it more to just raise the gun to the same point? Thank you and I will report back with how that is working.
Oz -- I will buy some decent 10M AP targets. I was hoping to go cheap with some substitute but you have convinced me that doing that is a fool's economy. I still have it in my head to photocopy off a ream of them ;) (when you look up cheapskate in the dictionary, my picture is there). I do use a sub-six hold. I'll experiment with the others you mention -- thanks again.
Lurking guest -- it's funny how it comes full circle -- I find the AP very attractive to eliminate the boredom of dry firing for firearms practice. As in all things, there is no free lunch. I will follow your advice. I like the idea of live fire as the "reward" for achieving dry fire goals. The Gammo does not have a way to dry fire without charging its pump, but I'll figure something out. If nothing else, I'll just shoot it without pellets.
For the blank target, I assume the object is to establish NPA with no aiming point? Otherwise, how do I hit a 4.5cm group while aiming at nothing -- just mentally divide the blank target or is it more to just raise the gun to the same point? Thank you and I will report back with how that is working.
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lurking guest
You should check the manual and maybe with others about dry firing the Gamo. Some APs (Daisy or Avanti?) can be cocked by opening and closing the chamber. Shooting without a pellet can damage some pistols.
Don't put effort into aiming or trying to note a point on the target, even your previous holes;just work on sight alignment and smooth trigger -- as you get and confirm your NPA, the sights should settle into the center naturally. It almost doesn't matter, as long as you are consistent. You might try dry firing against a blank target too. The blank target excercise has surprised a lot of people with some of their best groups.
Also, quit walking down to the target so often, wait til you have fired 10 or 20. You'll get a better feel for what's going on. Everything important happens behind the front sight, not at the target.
Don't put effort into aiming or trying to note a point on the target, even your previous holes;just work on sight alignment and smooth trigger -- as you get and confirm your NPA, the sights should settle into the center naturally. It almost doesn't matter, as long as you are consistent. You might try dry firing against a blank target too. The blank target excercise has surprised a lot of people with some of their best groups.
Also, quit walking down to the target so often, wait til you have fired 10 or 20. You'll get a better feel for what's going on. Everything important happens behind the front sight, not at the target.
Hi Phil, Yes you can dry fire...sorta... just lift the upper section partially,
until you hear a light click, which is a cocking of the trigger. the Compact will
release the sear but no air is expelled because it seems none was sucked
into the cylinder; so dry fire away, if you wish. If you really are shooting
.25" ten shot groups at ten meters, single handed, offhand with open sights,
I believe you have some of Annie Oakley's genetic heiratage.
Tony G
until you hear a light click, which is a cocking of the trigger. the Compact will
release the sear but no air is expelled because it seems none was sucked
into the cylinder; so dry fire away, if you wish. If you really are shooting
.25" ten shot groups at ten meters, single handed, offhand with open sights,
I believe you have some of Annie Oakley's genetic heiratage.
Tony G
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
Annie Oakley, heh heh.
Funny, I was discussing this with my wife last night and the only thing I can figure is I am left handed with right dominant eye and made the decision long ago to shoot right hand as the strong hand. I also have pretty good vision which in my younger days was better than 20/20 (a long time ago -- no more). Who knows.
I've been doing it right handed long enough that I pretty much think nothing of it except when my arm and hand gets tired, my brain does long to put the gun in the left hand. Anyway, maybe it's like the blind man who develops better hearing -- I don't know but I have spent a lot of time and effort making my left handed brain make my right hand shoot well and it seems maybe it's paying off with the AP after all that time.
I actually started to shoot a lot one handed because (after a lot of reflection) I discovered that when shooting two handed combat style, I could not confirm that my right hand was "doing" the aiming and I wanted to train it to take the lead. I discovered that I could shoot pretty much as well one handed as two.
Thanks for the info about dry firing the Gammo. I'm going to order some targets next week and get started on a training program.
The excellent advice from Lurking Guest shows why I need a coach (or at least a DVD -- somebody please make one -- ha ha). I'm going to check out a local range based club in Philadelphia for next month (they have monthly BE matches) and see if someone in the club would be willing to at least train/shoot together. I don't know of anyone locally who even owns an AP much less shoots one or holds matches. If I can keep it up, I'll have to travel I guess.
Anyway, I will follow Lurking Guest's advice and try that training regimen for at least a month and report the results. I am now thinking that instead of saving up to buy a jazzy new pistol, I may wait to break the cookie jar on a RIKA or similar. This is fun.
Thank you all again for your help. FWIW, if plans hold I will be helping to train some young recruits this summer and will "pay it forward" to impart in them what little knowledge of true skill I can pass along and hopefully a lifelong interest in marksmanship skills.
Funny, I was discussing this with my wife last night and the only thing I can figure is I am left handed with right dominant eye and made the decision long ago to shoot right hand as the strong hand. I also have pretty good vision which in my younger days was better than 20/20 (a long time ago -- no more). Who knows.
I've been doing it right handed long enough that I pretty much think nothing of it except when my arm and hand gets tired, my brain does long to put the gun in the left hand. Anyway, maybe it's like the blind man who develops better hearing -- I don't know but I have spent a lot of time and effort making my left handed brain make my right hand shoot well and it seems maybe it's paying off with the AP after all that time.
I actually started to shoot a lot one handed because (after a lot of reflection) I discovered that when shooting two handed combat style, I could not confirm that my right hand was "doing" the aiming and I wanted to train it to take the lead. I discovered that I could shoot pretty much as well one handed as two.
Thanks for the info about dry firing the Gammo. I'm going to order some targets next week and get started on a training program.
The excellent advice from Lurking Guest shows why I need a coach (or at least a DVD -- somebody please make one -- ha ha). I'm going to check out a local range based club in Philadelphia for next month (they have monthly BE matches) and see if someone in the club would be willing to at least train/shoot together. I don't know of anyone locally who even owns an AP much less shoots one or holds matches. If I can keep it up, I'll have to travel I guess.
Anyway, I will follow Lurking Guest's advice and try that training regimen for at least a month and report the results. I am now thinking that instead of saving up to buy a jazzy new pistol, I may wait to break the cookie jar on a RIKA or similar. This is fun.
Thank you all again for your help. FWIW, if plans hold I will be helping to train some young recruits this summer and will "pay it forward" to impart in them what little knowledge of true skill I can pass along and hopefully a lifelong interest in marksmanship skills.