Hammerli 208s Website
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Hammerli 208s Website
Is there a website dedicated to owners of these pistols?
-
Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
I don't know of any, but I stumbled upon the owners manual:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6819437/Hammerli-208
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6819437/Hammerli-208
Thanks for the responses. I have the manual and I've read the bullseyepistol.com articles.
I have noticed that under the left side of the slide there is excessive wear. A bur has developed there also. I was wondering what causes this and if it is something I should worry about.
As these pistols age and with no responses from places like Larry's Guns. I thought that one of the internet whiz kids might come up with a site where 208s owners might exchange information on DIY repairs and parts, etc. If I had the know how, I'd be all over it.
I have noticed that under the left side of the slide there is excessive wear. A bur has developed there also. I was wondering what causes this and if it is something I should worry about.
As these pistols age and with no responses from places like Larry's Guns. I thought that one of the internet whiz kids might come up with a site where 208s owners might exchange information on DIY repairs and parts, etc. If I had the know how, I'd be all over it.
I also have a similar article to the one mentioned above on my site. This was from a session with Larry Carter at the 2000 Dixie Matches:
Cleaning and Adjustments for the Hammerli 208s
I'm somewhat familiar with the 208s, having shot and maintained one for about nine years now and do provide responses to 208s questions from time to time here and on the Bullseye List.
I would like to report that the last time I purchased some items from Larry's Guns, the price of these parts was much better, due to his contracting their manufacture directly, instead of receiving them from Hammerli.
This did not include magazines, which have always been an issue for me. All the Hammerli magazines and magazine parts I have ever purchased wore out much faster than I thought they should, especially when they got to be over (US) $100 each.
I have since gone to modified S&W Model 41 magazines and have been using the same three for several years with no noticeable wear. It does take some work and you have to be careful when modifying them so you don't cause damage to the slide stop notch in the slide. I've also had a report from one individual that he couldn't get the rounds to feed without shaving lead until he also modified the follower in his S&W magazines.
As to the wear on the very bottom of the left rail of the slide, this is caused by the slide stop. The main wear appears to be further back from where logic would place it, but this might just be because everything is in motion at the time. Anyway, as the last round gets out of the follower's way, and before the bottom of the slide pushes down on the follower, the stop snaps up and rides briefly on the underside of the rail. As the slide retracts after the last round is fired, the stop is again allowed up to the slide, as the bottom of the slide releases the follower. This allows the stop to pop into its notch to lock the slide back on the last round. If you cycle the slide with an empty magazine in place, you can see that the rear edge of the wear mark coincides with the slide depressing the follower as it travels forward. I would probably remove a burr, but otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about the wear. (I must admit, though, to not having seen your "excessive wear." Mine has "appreciable wear." - smile) When the slide is fully in battery, there should be a gap between the stop and the slide rail. You should be able to detect this gap by pushing upward on the stop. On mine, there is about one sixteenth inch of clearance when in battery with an empty magazine inserted. Without a magazine, or with a loaded magazine the gap is about one quarter inch.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
Cleaning and Adjustments for the Hammerli 208s
I'm somewhat familiar with the 208s, having shot and maintained one for about nine years now and do provide responses to 208s questions from time to time here and on the Bullseye List.
I would like to report that the last time I purchased some items from Larry's Guns, the price of these parts was much better, due to his contracting their manufacture directly, instead of receiving them from Hammerli.
This did not include magazines, which have always been an issue for me. All the Hammerli magazines and magazine parts I have ever purchased wore out much faster than I thought they should, especially when they got to be over (US) $100 each.
I have since gone to modified S&W Model 41 magazines and have been using the same three for several years with no noticeable wear. It does take some work and you have to be careful when modifying them so you don't cause damage to the slide stop notch in the slide. I've also had a report from one individual that he couldn't get the rounds to feed without shaving lead until he also modified the follower in his S&W magazines.
As to the wear on the very bottom of the left rail of the slide, this is caused by the slide stop. The main wear appears to be further back from where logic would place it, but this might just be because everything is in motion at the time. Anyway, as the last round gets out of the follower's way, and before the bottom of the slide pushes down on the follower, the stop snaps up and rides briefly on the underside of the rail. As the slide retracts after the last round is fired, the stop is again allowed up to the slide, as the bottom of the slide releases the follower. This allows the stop to pop into its notch to lock the slide back on the last round. If you cycle the slide with an empty magazine in place, you can see that the rear edge of the wear mark coincides with the slide depressing the follower as it travels forward. I would probably remove a burr, but otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about the wear. (I must admit, though, to not having seen your "excessive wear." Mine has "appreciable wear." - smile) When the slide is fully in battery, there should be a gap between the stop and the slide rail. You should be able to detect this gap by pushing upward on the stop. On mine, there is about one sixteenth inch of clearance when in battery with an empty magazine inserted. Without a magazine, or with a loaded magazine the gap is about one quarter inch.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
Thanks, Ed for your time and effort regarding your very helpful and detailed response to my topic. I stoned the bur off the underside of the slide and thoroughly cleaned the Hammerli. I have noticed that Aguila Target ammo fits very tightly in the chamber and results in jams. SK Jagd Pistol Match just drops into the chamber and functions well. It also has more lube on the bullet. I'll have to stick with the latter for this pistol, even though the Aguila is very attractive at about half the price.
Glad I could be of help.
I've been using CCI SV for league and SK Jagd for matches as my main format. I have also used Federal 711b for leagues. I tried some Aguila that I got from CMP and it was OK, but I had an occasional alibi. The CMP had two forms of Aguila - the faster one seemed too hot for the 208s. Another ammo I use for practice only, is Winchester Xpert22 that I used to get in bulk packs at Wal-Mart for about $10 for 500. If you look at the Handgun Ballistics, it lists the velocity as only 925 fps. It has a 36 grain hollow point bullet that makes beautiful, large looking holes. I only use it for practice though, because I have had several failures to eject due to split cases. This could be a reason for some to not fire it at all.
And you should always try to feel how an ammo recoils in the 208s and not fire any that seem too hot. Firing something too hot will result in a broken slide - either the front cross bar or the left rail at the breechface. You should also keep track of the recoil spring, per my earlier instructions link to prevent slide failure.
I have heard of using a small piece of rubber band placed on the front part of the trigger guard that protrudes up into the frame, as a shock buffer. I have never tried this, but it seems feasible. The front crosspiece hits this part in recoil if it cycles far enough. This is the portion of the guard that prevents you from removing the slide until you pull down on the trigger guard.
Back to other ammos, I also use Eley when I happen across some and all forms of that brand seemed pretty failure free.
I have an oddity with SK Jagd that I have witnessed with regularity with others in my gourp:
After cleaning or use of any other ammo, the very first SK Jagd round fires, but doesn't cycle correctly, hanging up on the second round. I used to try to use Eley for Slow Fire and then switch to SK Jagd for Sustained, but I would always have to shoot an alibi. So now, I try to fire the same ammo throughout the .22 match. I have not experienced the first-round trouble with any other ammo. BTW, that was with the old Hammerli mags as well as the newer M41s.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
I've been using CCI SV for league and SK Jagd for matches as my main format. I have also used Federal 711b for leagues. I tried some Aguila that I got from CMP and it was OK, but I had an occasional alibi. The CMP had two forms of Aguila - the faster one seemed too hot for the 208s. Another ammo I use for practice only, is Winchester Xpert22 that I used to get in bulk packs at Wal-Mart for about $10 for 500. If you look at the Handgun Ballistics, it lists the velocity as only 925 fps. It has a 36 grain hollow point bullet that makes beautiful, large looking holes. I only use it for practice though, because I have had several failures to eject due to split cases. This could be a reason for some to not fire it at all.
And you should always try to feel how an ammo recoils in the 208s and not fire any that seem too hot. Firing something too hot will result in a broken slide - either the front cross bar or the left rail at the breechface. You should also keep track of the recoil spring, per my earlier instructions link to prevent slide failure.
I have heard of using a small piece of rubber band placed on the front part of the trigger guard that protrudes up into the frame, as a shock buffer. I have never tried this, but it seems feasible. The front crosspiece hits this part in recoil if it cycles far enough. This is the portion of the guard that prevents you from removing the slide until you pull down on the trigger guard.
Back to other ammos, I also use Eley when I happen across some and all forms of that brand seemed pretty failure free.
I have an oddity with SK Jagd that I have witnessed with regularity with others in my gourp:
After cleaning or use of any other ammo, the very first SK Jagd round fires, but doesn't cycle correctly, hanging up on the second round. I used to try to use Eley for Slow Fire and then switch to SK Jagd for Sustained, but I would always have to shoot an alibi. So now, I try to fire the same ammo throughout the .22 match. I have not experienced the first-round trouble with any other ammo. BTW, that was with the old Hammerli mags as well as the newer M41s.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
-
Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
Thanks Ed for the cleaning & adjustment doc, duly downloaded & studied.
What about more involved maintenance work? The reason for asking is that I have an early-model 208, with the simpler trigger. It's not done a lot of work, but its previous owner(s) can't be assumed to have cleaned or lubricated it properly, and the sear / hammer area was oily and dirty.
How should the sear be thoroughly cleaned and lubricated? I have used Moly anti-fretting or anti-scuffing pastes for various other engineering applications, but sometimes this seems to do odd things to trigger feel, if used as a sear lubricant.
What about more involved maintenance work? The reason for asking is that I have an early-model 208, with the simpler trigger. It's not done a lot of work, but its previous owner(s) can't be assumed to have cleaned or lubricated it properly, and the sear / hammer area was oily and dirty.
How should the sear be thoroughly cleaned and lubricated? I have used Moly anti-fretting or anti-scuffing pastes for various other engineering applications, but sometimes this seems to do odd things to trigger feel, if used as a sear lubricant.
Here's a detailed procedure for the 208s. I hope this is helpful, and if not, let me know.
The 208s sear was actually designed to work specifically with moly lubricant instead of oil. The contact surface has a crosshatch pattern that holds the moly lube in place on its surface for longtime use.
Note: Although I am providing detailed information as to how to disassemble/reassemble the sear/hammer, I cannot assume any risk for your firearm. This procedure should only be done by a qualified individual. Proceed at your own risk.
Additional Note: If you are following this procedure, you might want to also follow the basic procedure located at Cleaning and Adjustments for the Hammerli 208s as also referenced above.
To remove/replace the hammer and sear for inspection and lubrication:
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
The 208s sear was actually designed to work specifically with moly lubricant instead of oil. The contact surface has a crosshatch pattern that holds the moly lube in place on its surface for longtime use.
Note: Although I am providing detailed information as to how to disassemble/reassemble the sear/hammer, I cannot assume any risk for your firearm. This procedure should only be done by a qualified individual. Proceed at your own risk.
Additional Note: If you are following this procedure, you might want to also follow the basic procedure located at Cleaning and Adjustments for the Hammerli 208s as also referenced above.
To remove/replace the hammer and sear for inspection and lubrication:
- 1. remove the slide
2. remove the grips
3. remove the magazine catch and mainspring (easier with hammer forward)
4. remove the trigger bar and spring
5. remove the crosspin and sear leaf spring (inside the magazine well)
6. place the frame, with the slide lock facing down, on a supported surface with an appropriate cutout for the pins
7. using a high quality drift pin punch of the proper diameter, drive out the hammer pin and remove the hammer
8. using a high quality drift pin punch of the proper diameter, drive out the sear pin and remove the sear through the side opening
9. thoroughly clean the hammer and strut
10. thoroughly clean the sear
11. thoroughly clean the frame where the hammer and sear ride
12. inspect the sear with a loupe to evaluate the crosshatch pattern on the part that rides under the hammer hook - if the crosshatch is worn away, you need a new sear
13. apply non-graphite moly lube to the crosshatch area (be liberal) and side surfaces of the sear and its hole
14. place sear in frame through side
15. look for chamfered end of sear pin and insert it first
16. (with frame supported the same as above) drive sear pin into place, being careful to ensure hole alignment**
17. apply non-graphite moly lube to side surfaces of the hammer where it rides in the frame and its hook, hole and strut connection
18. place hammer in frame
19. look for chamfered end of hammer pin and insert it first
20. (with frame supported the same as above) drive hammer pin into place, being careful to ensure hole alignment**
21. replace sear spring and crosspin - ensure spring is against sear, not outside of sear area
22. replace mainspring and magazine catch (easier with hammer forward)
23. lube and replace trigger bar and spring (spring ends face front and there is supposed to be a slight twist to the spring) - also be sure spring is in slot in bar, not under bar
24. replace slide
25. check for proper operation:- 25a. with dry fire plug in place, cycle slide into battery
25b. while watching the sear end of the trigger bar, operate trigger - hammer should fall
25c. while holding trigger back, cycle slide - trigger bar should be resting below sear catch
25d. slowly release trigger - trigger bar should snap back into place catching sear
- 25a. with dry fire plug in place, cycle slide into battery
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
-
Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
-
Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
208 trigger adjustment
I have the user handbook for the older model 208 with the simpler, less adjustable trigger.
The user is permitted to adjust trigger pull weight, but backlash adjustment should only be done by a gunsmith! The nanny state was up and running in Switzerland all those years ago, it seems.
The handbook then states 'The trigger-adjustment-screw 261 must not be touched'. Well, it's irresistable! Why shouldn't I touch it? What does it do? If I tweak it, but don't tell anybody, will I get into trouble? Seriously, is this a sear-engagement adjustment? I can detect a little creep in what used to be a really crisp trigger - can I adjust this out, or does it signify wear?
The user is permitted to adjust trigger pull weight, but backlash adjustment should only be done by a gunsmith! The nanny state was up and running in Switzerland all those years ago, it seems.
The handbook then states 'The trigger-adjustment-screw 261 must not be touched'. Well, it's irresistable! Why shouldn't I touch it? What does it do? If I tweak it, but don't tell anybody, will I get into trouble? Seriously, is this a sear-engagement adjustment? I can detect a little creep in what used to be a really crisp trigger - can I adjust this out, or does it signify wear?
Re: 208 trigger adjustment
I don't have your manual, so I can't tell what screw 261 does or where it is. I have looked at the 208/215 manual from our host's tenP files (which also includes disassembly instructions, BTW) and it doesn't seem to have that info. I would need to know exactly what is referenced as "backlash" to know the reason for a manufacturer's concern, but I suspect either liability or internal damage. If backlash is referring to travel after sear disengagement, then the reason is to keep the sear from dragging on the portion of the hammer after the hook area. This could cause undue wear and I have seen it cause misfires by slowing the hammer down in at least one gun.Shooting Kiwi wrote:I have the user handbook for the older model 208 with the simpler, less adjustable trigger.
The user is permitted to adjust trigger pull weight, but backlash adjustment should only be done by a gunsmith! The nanny state was up and running in Switzerland all those years ago, it seems.
The handbook then states 'The trigger-adjustment-screw 261 must not be touched'. Well, it's irresistable! Why shouldn't I touch it? What does it do? If I tweak it, but don't tell anybody, will I get into trouble? Seriously, is this a sear-engagement adjustment? I can detect a little creep in what used to be a really crisp trigger - can I adjust this out, or does it signify wear?
As to the creep, I can't say. It seems that the normal sign of a worn sear is a gritty or rough feeling, but I think that could also be a lubrication issue. I would need more info in regards to the creep, as well.
Sorry I haven't been very helpful this time. Maybe I can help more later.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
I have opened a webpage on the 208 at http://www.australiancynic.com/208.htm.
Thanks to Ed Hall for permission to reproduce his article.
If anybody has some links to additional info, let me know and I will add them.
Spencer
Thanks to Ed Hall for permission to reproduce his article.
If anybody has some links to additional info, let me know and I will add them.
Spencer
Thanks Spencer,Spencer wrote:I have opened a webpage on the 208 at http://www.australiancynic.com/208.htm.
I would like to add the following:
While cleaning the magazines, look for the following wear indicators that may cause problems if they become severe:
- closely inspect the rear lips where they meet the backstrap for cracking and or peening from the .22 rims "popping" upward into place
- inspect the front edge of the left rear lip for peening due to the empty cases ejecting off this point instead of the ejector
- look for chatter marks in the follower cross-pin tracks on either side of the magazine
I will also dig out links to some other things I've put out in the fora.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
-
Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
My 208s with scope mount had developed feeding and ejection problems. I tried new magazines, cleaning the chamber squeaky clean, and giving the gun a very good cleaning. I also cleaned the magazines. I tried a couple of different ammos that had been reliable in the past, i.e. CCI SV, SK Jagd PM and SK Jagd PM Special. I was always getting brass trapped under the scope mount and feeding problems. I finally put a large drop of a fairly heavy oil (Machine Gun Lube) on the bullet and case on the top round in each magazine. This is a practice used by a lot of model 41 shooters. Well, this seemed to solve my problems. I shot the gun yesterday with both CCI SV and SK Jagd PM and didn't have any malfunctions after 60 shots. I suppose that I'll have to keep doing this to preserve functioning.