I just found and joined this forum. I am replying to the original thread question. I started shooting .22 when I was 11 years old. I shot all over New England prone and 3P and made several trips to Camp Perry over the years (early to mid 80's). I shot on my high school rifle team. After that I went to college and didn't have the time or money to shoot anymore. Sold the Anschutz when I was low on cash. I have always missed shooting. I still don't have the time or money (3 kids) to get back into small bore but I found this site while looking for air rifle equipment. I think I will build a solo 10m range in the basement and be the best air rifle marksman that nobody ever heard of. Thats how I drifted away.
My high school doesn't have a rifle team anymore. People don't believe me when I tell them I used to bring a rifle to school all the time, and it was okay. I think there is a stigma attached to guns, especially around kids. Well most everyone starts sports and hobbies when they are kids. If they don't start young then they are less likely to start when they are older.
There are also far fewer guns stores around here anymore. I don't think I could drive to more than 2 gun stores in less that 45 an hour. There are still a few gun ranges around but they certainly don't advertise. They try to stay hidden so they don't get sued for loud noises or stray bullets.
I think the only way to bring shooting back is to market it to kids and families as a sport and activity. I just don't know if the climate is right to do that.
Where have all the shooters gone?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Re: Military accuracy
A few things have changed in past 40 years. Marksmanship has been de-emphasized. IIRC, for a while (until OIF and OEF started), the Air Force and Navy guys didn't always receive firearms training and didn't even have to qualify.tleddy wrote:I do not know whence this quotation came and I think it regarded carrying arms:
"It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."
Certainly that is my position on concealed carry... and you darn well be accurate. It has been said by many shooters that if you can shoot Bullseye and International Pistol, you can do well in any of the pistol disciplines. I believe that the disciplines that we practice are transferable.
In my Basic Training for the US Army we were taught how to shoot the
M-1 Garand Rifle with more than a modicum of accuracy - we spent a lot of training time on the range and most in my unit were Sharpshooter level. Now, admittedly there is a difference between that rank in our disciplines and the military version; none-the-less, I would not have wanted to be downrange as a target with anyone in my unit looking to hit me.
We did not train or qualify with the side arm... I guess that infantry line soldiers were expected to use the Garand exclusively. It was not until I became a Sergeant that someone thought I needed to learn and qualify with a 1911 .45 - now that was DIFFICULT!!!
Now, I took Basic in 1959 and have had no experience in the military since I got out in '65. Anyone with more recent experience in military marksmanship, please comment.
FWIW, some Coasties have deployed and are doing stuff overseas too.Alex1262 wrote:Hey, at least the Navy and USAF have SOME elite units. The Coast Guard (Is that even still part of the military?) has nothing. Theyre just police with boats, protecting our sand from the imminent invasion. They dont even qualify with long guns, just pistols. So dont knock the USN and USAF too bad.
Marines are the best as a whole group, espically at distances over 200 yards. Marines took so many headshots during the invasion of Fallujah that there was an investigation to see if they were excuting insurgents. The report found that the average headshot was taken at 150 yards.
Are you sure it's that the AMU produces them or that they were good before and just happen to join the Army and go to the AMU because it's one of the few jobs in the country where you can get paid to shoot competitively?Richard H wrote:Couldn't agree with you more, other than a couple of exceptions the AMU has produced the best shooters (rifle anyways) in the US. I don't think anyone can argue with their success (but I sure someone will).
The US isn't alone either look at the background of some of the top shooters in the world and you will find a lot with a military background.
Its sort of the chicken or the egg kind of question no foolproof way to answer it.sparky wrote:Are you sure it's that the AMU produces them or that they were good before and just happen to join the Army and go to the AMU because it's one of the few jobs in the country where you can get paid to shoot competitively?Richard H wrote:Couldn't agree with you more, other than a couple of exceptions the AMU has produced the best shooters (rifle anyways) in the US. I don't think anyone can argue with their success (but I sure someone will).
The US isn't alone either look at the background of some of the top shooters in the world and you will find a lot with a military background.
Well the fact that they basically are professional marksman (ie paid to do it) probably has a lot to do with it, just as a lot of the top shooters from other countries are from their respective militaries too. As for if they were good before they got there, well you have to be good enough to get in the AMU so. The fact is that's where they are coming from.
I'm sure that there isn't this big giant pool of great rifle shooter shooting world class scores outside the AMU, so I think it's a safe assumption to think the AMU has something to do with it.
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Barack Obama
It's my understanding that the AMU actively recruits, and places, young civilian shooters while the other service teams do not - not that they can't invite someone to enlist and try out for the team, but they don't have the same ability to ensure that they're assigned to a duty that enables them to join the team.Are you sure it's that the AMU produces them or that they were good before and just happen to join the Army and go to the AMU because it's one of the few jobs in the country where you can get paid to shoot competitively?
Maybe someone who's more familiar w/ the respective service teams can clarify.
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Telecomtodd
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm
- Location: Saint Charles, MO
I was hit up by an AMU recruiter in 1982...told me I'd have to go through basic but then I was to tell them I was to go to Ft. Benning to shoot. "Wouldn't you like to just shoot all day?" I told him the truth that I'd lost hearing in one ear due to an accident, and that's the last I saw of that guy!
It's up to us to change that perception from a grass roots level. The media will sensationalise everything, but shooting is an extremely safe sport and there are numerous ways of getting that message across and 'training' youngsters (and adults) how to handle guns safely. That in turn teaches respect for guns and can only help reduce the gun crime / gang culture associated with them in some circles.Nev C wrote:This won't happen while the media is so anti gun.I think the only way to bring shooting back is to market it to kids and families as a sport and activity. I just don't know if the climate is right to do that.
Rob.
I quite agree Rob, but it's the classic chicken and the egg thing, as long as the media and politicians are anti gun, it is very hard to get families to take up shooting sports ( guns are evil ). If the media and politicians were to take a positive attitude to shooting sports then maybe families would participate more. If more families were to take up shooting sports and demonstrate how safe they are, then the media and politicians may have a different attitude to our sport.It's up to us to change that perception from a grass roots level. The media will sensationalise everything, but shooting is an extremely safe sport and there are numerous ways of getting that message across and 'training' youngsters (and adults) how to handle guns safely. That in turn teaches respect for guns and can only help reduce the gun crime / gang culture associated with them in some circles.
On a more positive note, the British 'Guardian' News Paper has been running a series of full page articles on activities/sports that the whole family can take part in together.
One such activity was target shooting and the Guardian journalist complete with her husband and young sons came down to my shooting club with a photographer. They tried out air rifle & pistol and small bore prone rifle under supervision and thoroughly enjoyed their experience.
The article complete with pictures of them shooting was published in the Saturday Guardian, and they recommended that families should come and try it out. The whole article was very positive which was nice to see from a very left wing news paper. There's hope yet.
One such activity was target shooting and the Guardian journalist complete with her husband and young sons came down to my shooting club with a photographer. They tried out air rifle & pistol and small bore prone rifle under supervision and thoroughly enjoyed their experience.
The article complete with pictures of them shooting was published in the Saturday Guardian, and they recommended that families should come and try it out. The whole article was very positive which was nice to see from a very left wing news paper. There's hope yet.
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Willowglen
Considering that the Guardian and the Economist are two newspapers that have been arguing for a long time that no private citizen has the right to own a gun, whatever they say about target shooting as a family activity deserves to be taken with a ship load of salt. Check the Guardian's website for their "gun violence" fear mongering. It is a no brainer to see where they stand.
On a positive note several clubs in the Midwest have begun offering scholarships to high school and university students for doing well in shooting though this is mostly in the shotgun disciplines. In due course, this could expand to air rifle, rifle and rimfire and centerfire matches if the program works and if there are ranges nearby.
The best way to promote the sport, of course, is for people to enjoy it as a family activity. My little girl has started shooting and I am a proud father!
On a positive note several clubs in the Midwest have begun offering scholarships to high school and university students for doing well in shooting though this is mostly in the shotgun disciplines. In due course, this could expand to air rifle, rifle and rimfire and centerfire matches if the program works and if there are ranges nearby.
The best way to promote the sport, of course, is for people to enjoy it as a family activity. My little girl has started shooting and I am a proud father!
I don't really agree here, I propose it could easily be a "If you build it, they will come" approach.I quite agree Rob, but it's the classic chicken and the egg thing, as long as the media and politicians are anti gun, it is very hard to get families to take up shooting sports
What I think is needed is more "older" shooters and interested adults to offer programs for the youth, whether it is 4-H, Scouts, JROTC, etc .... what are needed are committed people that are willing to invest their time into a program that will not, admittedly, take off with a bang.... it may take two to three years to grow the thing.
I have had parents that have been very unenthusiastic when their child wants to shoot, and are there as an "OK, wait till you put your eye out" type of attitude, but come around in a month or so when they see how we run the program and how enthusiastic their kids are. One more item to hold over thier kids heads to get them to do their chores, turn in their homework, etc never hurts, and I support them in this carrot on a stick approach. If the kids does not get to come to practice that week and wants me to go to bat with them for their parents, they will only make that mistake once ... I'm a parent, and I hang with that crowd.
Most gun clubs, 4-H programs have ways to get grants and funding for rifles, pistols, equip .... not all at once, but start small and when the funding organizations see the results, they should keep funding the activity[/b]
My club runs a programme for the local scout troup who are instructed in the art of target shooting by our coaches. We also open our doors to the local military cadet forces who are also given instruction on target shooting which supplements their military training on other ranges.
The article on our club published in the Guardian newspaper has so far got us 3 new members and scores of enquiries from mums and dads and that's only 10 days after publication. Cinical or not about the Guardian news paper, the article has proved positive for the club and shooting.
The Guardian is a nation wide publication so they inserted all the relevant details of the British NSRA as a contact point for enquiries. The NSRA can then direct these people to the nearest club in their area.
The article on our club published in the Guardian newspaper has so far got us 3 new members and scores of enquiries from mums and dads and that's only 10 days after publication. Cinical or not about the Guardian news paper, the article has proved positive for the club and shooting.
The Guardian is a nation wide publication so they inserted all the relevant details of the British NSRA as a contact point for enquiries. The NSRA can then direct these people to the nearest club in their area.
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Jose Rossy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am
- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
That's great to hear. Good on ya.peepsight wrote:My club runs a programme for the local scout troup who are instructed in the art of target shooting by our coaches. We also open our doors to the local military cadet forces who are also given instruction on target shooting which supplements their military training on other ranges.
The article on our club published in the Guardian newspaper has so far got us 3 new members and scores of enquiries from mums and dads and that's only 10 days after publication. Cinical or not about the Guardian news paper, the article has proved positive for the club and shooting.
The Guardian is a nation wide publication so they inserted all the relevant details of the British NSRA as a contact point for enquiries. The NSRA can then direct these people to the nearest club in their area.
Just a secondary piece of info to my last post.
The British NSRA hold an open week once a year for the public to come have a look. Many NSRA associated clubs through out the country hold an open day to the public [at the club's discretion] for its local population.
My club puts an add in the local newpaper and it also informs the local council of the intended activity and date.
The national shooting week run by the NSRA is to open up the sport of target shooting including clay shooting to a wider audience and it is every year reasonably successful. Often there are high profile sports ministers from the government and opposition who make a visit to the NSRA HQ during that week.
Just as a point of interest, the British government have a rifle range in the basement of the Houses of Parliament for all parties to shoot in.
Not sure how much use it gets?
The media are only slightly interested as its not some guys chasing a ball round a field, but that's life.
The British NSRA hold an open week once a year for the public to come have a look. Many NSRA associated clubs through out the country hold an open day to the public [at the club's discretion] for its local population.
My club puts an add in the local newpaper and it also informs the local council of the intended activity and date.
The national shooting week run by the NSRA is to open up the sport of target shooting including clay shooting to a wider audience and it is every year reasonably successful. Often there are high profile sports ministers from the government and opposition who make a visit to the NSRA HQ during that week.
Just as a point of interest, the British government have a rifle range in the basement of the Houses of Parliament for all parties to shoot in.
Not sure how much use it gets?
The media are only slightly interested as its not some guys chasing a ball round a field, but that's life.
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Guest
shooting with kids
I began shooting as an adult after becoming interested in biathlon. I took my kids to races at local F&G clubs where the kids had access to kid sized rifles. They did shoot my biathlon rifle off a bench and were really excited to have a small rifle weighing less than they do. Due to their enthusiasm I purchased a Savage 17YR Buckaroo and restocked the thing to look more like a biathlon rifle. I added a biathlon sight set and the kids, 4 and 7 y.o., have become pretty good shooters. The 7 y.o., she takes shooting accurately pretty seriously and the 4 y.o. mostly enjoys making noise but he's having fun which is important. I also picked up a .308 for some HP target shooting at the local (45 minute drive) club.
My wife started shooting too and in less then one year we went from a zero firearm household to four. As a family we're not pure match shooters but we dump a bit of cash into the economy via shooting sports. In addition to biathlons we plan on attending some match and silhouette events hoping to learn more and become better marksmen. What's great is biathlon events at Pemigiwassette F&G and the Saratoga biathlon club have a kid category which give everyone a chance to participate. Events at SBC are air rifle and the participants are usually kids of adults. At Pemi, the 4H kids race and bring their parents.
I am fortunate enough to have the space to build a practice range at the house. Occasionally friends will stop over after or during rifle practice and I offer them the rifle and we spend a few minutes shooting. They usually have a great time and ask if they can do it again. The next time they bring along the family. All of the kids can shoot if they want too after the safety briefing and quiz which is very basic and an "as you go" thing. The questions are along the lines of "Always treat the gun as if its....?" They answer "loaded and ready to shoot."
"Only put your finger on the trigger...?" "When you're ready to shoot."
The emphasis is on safe range and gun handling procedures which makes the parents more comfortable and the kids help re-enforce the rules. It's always great when one of the kids reminds a parent to open the bolt or remove the mag. The idea is to make it safe by imparting a bit of responsibility to the kids. Having said this I am at their side to offer any help and keep track of the muzzle/ammo. Teaching methods aside its an introduction to firearms. We shoot prone since I can put the rifle onto the rest pointing downrange and the kids just need to get behind it.
All shooting is from prone off a rest as it helps garner enthusiasm if they hit the target. Some of these friends want to try a biathlon this summer and all agree shooting is fun, a challenge and very relaxing. I've also gathered a pile of ear and eye pro.
Another bit I've discovered is taking novices to the range away from the house during a quiet period whenever possible. Use a smallbore rifle and sub sonic ammo. The report from some rifles, especially the HP variety, tends to make the uninitiated really nervous and jumpy. Too big of a recoil can hurt too making it no fun. Make the experience enjoyable.
The media does portray all firearms as weapons which is a semantic headache. A weapon infers killing or self defense, both of which are violent. Olympic target shooting sounds very regal and something to aspire too. As shooters we can allow the media to push their agenda (bad news sells) or we can contact the local media and fill them in on a kid who does well behind the trigger. With all of the outlets for media there is a desperate need for content. Feed the local papers/radio/TV the positive side of firearms. Present a positive image. A kid intent on heading to the Olympics and is dedicated to training doesn't have the time to be a degenerate. They have high self esteem and determination which are valued in today's society.
To help build shooting sports we can make the first intro to firearms a positive experience and also get the word out about the positive side of rifles and other forms of target sport.
The point(?) of this diatribe is it is possible to have families become involved with shooting sports. They just need access and a place to give it a try.
My wife started shooting too and in less then one year we went from a zero firearm household to four. As a family we're not pure match shooters but we dump a bit of cash into the economy via shooting sports. In addition to biathlons we plan on attending some match and silhouette events hoping to learn more and become better marksmen. What's great is biathlon events at Pemigiwassette F&G and the Saratoga biathlon club have a kid category which give everyone a chance to participate. Events at SBC are air rifle and the participants are usually kids of adults. At Pemi, the 4H kids race and bring their parents.
I am fortunate enough to have the space to build a practice range at the house. Occasionally friends will stop over after or during rifle practice and I offer them the rifle and we spend a few minutes shooting. They usually have a great time and ask if they can do it again. The next time they bring along the family. All of the kids can shoot if they want too after the safety briefing and quiz which is very basic and an "as you go" thing. The questions are along the lines of "Always treat the gun as if its....?" They answer "loaded and ready to shoot."
"Only put your finger on the trigger...?" "When you're ready to shoot."
The emphasis is on safe range and gun handling procedures which makes the parents more comfortable and the kids help re-enforce the rules. It's always great when one of the kids reminds a parent to open the bolt or remove the mag. The idea is to make it safe by imparting a bit of responsibility to the kids. Having said this I am at their side to offer any help and keep track of the muzzle/ammo. Teaching methods aside its an introduction to firearms. We shoot prone since I can put the rifle onto the rest pointing downrange and the kids just need to get behind it.
All shooting is from prone off a rest as it helps garner enthusiasm if they hit the target. Some of these friends want to try a biathlon this summer and all agree shooting is fun, a challenge and very relaxing. I've also gathered a pile of ear and eye pro.
Another bit I've discovered is taking novices to the range away from the house during a quiet period whenever possible. Use a smallbore rifle and sub sonic ammo. The report from some rifles, especially the HP variety, tends to make the uninitiated really nervous and jumpy. Too big of a recoil can hurt too making it no fun. Make the experience enjoyable.
The media does portray all firearms as weapons which is a semantic headache. A weapon infers killing or self defense, both of which are violent. Olympic target shooting sounds very regal and something to aspire too. As shooters we can allow the media to push their agenda (bad news sells) or we can contact the local media and fill them in on a kid who does well behind the trigger. With all of the outlets for media there is a desperate need for content. Feed the local papers/radio/TV the positive side of firearms. Present a positive image. A kid intent on heading to the Olympics and is dedicated to training doesn't have the time to be a degenerate. They have high self esteem and determination which are valued in today's society.
To help build shooting sports we can make the first intro to firearms a positive experience and also get the word out about the positive side of rifles and other forms of target sport.
The point(?) of this diatribe is it is possible to have families become involved with shooting sports. They just need access and a place to give it a try.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Dave
I think your right re the creche, Years ago when Edwina Currey was in the government of the day, we challenged her if she could raise a team to a match. She aggreed, but said it would have to be a postal because we were not security cleared for the HOP. It never did happen.
Some body needs to inform the media that for every gun crime reported and given out as news, there are equally dedicated target shooters winning matches and medals at International, national, county, regional and club level.
It really does need the NSRA to take on board this fact and ask news papers to print these results in their sports sections, or at least get local papers to do this as an item of local interest. It happens on the Continent and in most of Scandinavia and Russia.
I think your right re the creche, Years ago when Edwina Currey was in the government of the day, we challenged her if she could raise a team to a match. She aggreed, but said it would have to be a postal because we were not security cleared for the HOP. It never did happen.
Some body needs to inform the media that for every gun crime reported and given out as news, there are equally dedicated target shooters winning matches and medals at International, national, county, regional and club level.
It really does need the NSRA to take on board this fact and ask news papers to print these results in their sports sections, or at least get local papers to do this as an item of local interest. It happens on the Continent and in most of Scandinavia and Russia.