A (Hopefully) Thought Provoking Quiz
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Guest
Question #7
I am somewhat surprised that NPA doesn't rank higher in most of the responses.
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JulianY
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: A british shooting refugee in Amsterdam
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Re: Question #7
I'll stick my neck out and take the bait!Anonymous wrote:I am somewhat surprised that NPA doesn't rank higher in most of the responses.
I am not surprised about this. Just about every this you see is sights , sight and more sights after that it trigger trigger trigger.
For my $0.02, and i am still formulating my ideas about this, The key is balance; governed by stance, posture and fitness. NPA represents the balance point between the chest, back and shoulder muscles, and is only a small part of the overall picture. All of these factors lead to a "smaller" hold which can then be finished off by good sight techniques and good trigger technique.
OK now so sit back and count the flames ;)
JY
Last edited by JulianY on Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Swartz
Julian:
You are spot on IMNSHO. Subconsciously releasing the shot with perfect trigger while letting the perfectly aligned sights wobble in the aiming area is priority 1-10.
I have seen (on Rika, Scatt, FTVS systems) absolutely atrocious holds (and not just my own!) . . . and I mean wide 7-ring in AP . . . converted into consistent (570+ scores) tens.
However
It is a heck of a lot easier to "accept your settle and release your shot" when the "settle" you are "accepting" appears to be a really calm tight-9 hold.
And
Assuming you do not subscribe to the "subconscious process will time the shot to break when it is headed in" and instead believe in the "random release of shot inside your hold" theory, certainly you would agree that the probability of any given shot being closer to the center goes way up when the extremes of the wobble are smaller.
Steve Swartz
You are spot on IMNSHO. Subconsciously releasing the shot with perfect trigger while letting the perfectly aligned sights wobble in the aiming area is priority 1-10.
I have seen (on Rika, Scatt, FTVS systems) absolutely atrocious holds (and not just my own!) . . . and I mean wide 7-ring in AP . . . converted into consistent (570+ scores) tens.
However
It is a heck of a lot easier to "accept your settle and release your shot" when the "settle" you are "accepting" appears to be a really calm tight-9 hold.
And
Assuming you do not subscribe to the "subconscious process will time the shot to break when it is headed in" and instead believe in the "random release of shot inside your hold" theory, certainly you would agree that the probability of any given shot being closer to the center goes way up when the extremes of the wobble are smaller.
Steve Swartz
" Assuming you do not subscribe to the "subconscious process will time the shot to break when it is headed in" and instead believe in the "random release of shot inside your hold" theory, certainly you would agree that the probability of any given shot being closer to the center goes way up when the extremes of the wobble are smaller. Steve Swartz"
I was years ago of the "random release of shot inside your hold" theory. I should go back to that theory. But 57 year old eyes can't stay quiet on the sight like they used to. I like to see the colour and grain of the sight. Not the black silhouette I have now with our covered line and dim lighting. I have much to play with in more light, notch width, and Rx.
Also years ago my hold did not dart around like it does now. Nerves of steel I guess back then. I can still get momentary holds on the X ring. But not like the forever holds I once had.
To me, sight alignment and trigger control, by themselves are easy. The hard part is the acceptance thing for your hold without lowering your standards.
I was years ago of the "random release of shot inside your hold" theory. I should go back to that theory. But 57 year old eyes can't stay quiet on the sight like they used to. I like to see the colour and grain of the sight. Not the black silhouette I have now with our covered line and dim lighting. I have much to play with in more light, notch width, and Rx.
Also years ago my hold did not dart around like it does now. Nerves of steel I guess back then. I can still get momentary holds on the X ring. But not like the forever holds I once had.
To me, sight alignment and trigger control, by themselves are easy. The hard part is the acceptance thing for your hold without lowering your standards.
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Ed Hall
I had hoped to put together a very detailed post about each of my answers, but time has not been kind enough to me. I do have a partial "book" I started to write, just on question 7, but it isn't complete at several paragraphs. So, this will be only my answers to the ten questions and my discussion will have to follow later. I hope this won't be too boring without all my extra comments just yet.(smile) I will try to add some things later.
1. Match preparation starts (d) during the training sessions before a match.
(General competition training starts when you decide to become a competitor.)
2. The hold for the perfect shot (c) should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to (a) perform the desired task over and over.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot (d) completes as the aligned sights settle in the center. (However, note my message to Steve.)
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to (a) perform that event.
6. The proper use of open sights entails (c) fixing your focus on a single point of the front sight.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
--1. (e) trigger operation
--2. (b) sight alignment
--3. (g) attitude
--4. (d) hold
--5. (h) imagery (visualization)
--6. (c) grip
--7. (a) NPA
--8. (f) stance
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot. (b) False
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training. This answer is personal and depends on what you seek.
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost. (b) False
I, of course, will have some comments to offer later, but among the responses already made, I think there is much agreement, with only a small amount of difference.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
1. Match preparation starts (d) during the training sessions before a match.
(General competition training starts when you decide to become a competitor.)
2. The hold for the perfect shot (c) should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to (a) perform the desired task over and over.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot (d) completes as the aligned sights settle in the center. (However, note my message to Steve.)
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to (a) perform that event.
6. The proper use of open sights entails (c) fixing your focus on a single point of the front sight.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
--1. (e) trigger operation
--2. (b) sight alignment
--3. (g) attitude
--4. (d) hold
--5. (h) imagery (visualization)
--6. (c) grip
--7. (a) NPA
--8. (f) stance
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot. (b) False
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training. This answer is personal and depends on what you seek.
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost. (b) False
I, of course, will have some comments to offer later, but among the responses already made, I think there is much agreement, with only a small amount of difference.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Re: A (Hopefully) Thought Provoking Quiz
from the pespective of someone to who 10m is a second shooting sport, and with only a year or two of competitive shooting behind him (nothing bigger than a county paper league in 10m)...national in FT.
feel free to comment...:)
1. Match preparation starts
i think i started when i did my first comp...i havent stopped thinking about it since...i dont have much of a routine, but preparation for a big event normally starts the week before. As i shoot competively at least once a week there's always something i'm working on...
specific preparation is normally the evening before...but i dont take it seriously enough that i wont have a couple of pints before hand, and it's not unknown for me to have 5-6 hours sleep before a 2 hour drive and 30 mins before getting on the range...but its meant to be fun hehe.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
grief, i dont know... most of my problems occur at the shot release, so i prefer to try and stay stable relaxed until and through that point whilst holding a clear 10 shot...
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
practice it...and if you can shoot comps...because it seems to be always slightly different in competition to practice. I try and blur the boundary by shooting not spending too much time practicing unless i'm working on something specific. I find it can build up too much anitipation and stress before a competition. If i can repeat the result i want several times i move on.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
it has to be right...i think its unique to the individual but exploring the envelope of the possible methods can bring results and perspective. I feel it should be subconcious if correct.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
depends on what your trying to do...the body has a memory as well as the mind...
6. The proper use of open sights entails
dunno, i just look for a clear ring around it of equal distance in one go...but i often find i can be a little too fixated by that and then i have to manually shift to think about taking the shot...that leads to problems. If it all goes well, the above doesnt happen.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
attitude
imagery (visualization)
NPA
stance
trigger operation
sight alignment
hold
grip
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
easy
b. False
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
easy...the law of diminishing returns means you have to work hard to gain the little you still need.
b. False
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
b. False
its never over...even if someone told you that you were bottom, there's always something more to learn. Chucking the towel in is in human nature, but so is not getting a 10, so why put yourself sub human?
feel free to comment...:)
1. Match preparation starts
i think i started when i did my first comp...i havent stopped thinking about it since...i dont have much of a routine, but preparation for a big event normally starts the week before. As i shoot competively at least once a week there's always something i'm working on...
specific preparation is normally the evening before...but i dont take it seriously enough that i wont have a couple of pints before hand, and it's not unknown for me to have 5-6 hours sleep before a 2 hour drive and 30 mins before getting on the range...but its meant to be fun hehe.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
grief, i dont know... most of my problems occur at the shot release, so i prefer to try and stay stable relaxed until and through that point whilst holding a clear 10 shot...
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
practice it...and if you can shoot comps...because it seems to be always slightly different in competition to practice. I try and blur the boundary by shooting not spending too much time practicing unless i'm working on something specific. I find it can build up too much anitipation and stress before a competition. If i can repeat the result i want several times i move on.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
it has to be right...i think its unique to the individual but exploring the envelope of the possible methods can bring results and perspective. I feel it should be subconcious if correct.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
depends on what your trying to do...the body has a memory as well as the mind...
6. The proper use of open sights entails
dunno, i just look for a clear ring around it of equal distance in one go...but i often find i can be a little too fixated by that and then i have to manually shift to think about taking the shot...that leads to problems. If it all goes well, the above doesnt happen.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
attitude
imagery (visualization)
NPA
stance
trigger operation
sight alignment
hold
grip
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
easy
b. False
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
easy...the law of diminishing returns means you have to work hard to gain the little you still need.
b. False
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
b. False
its never over...even if someone told you that you were bottom, there's always something more to learn. Chucking the towel in is in human nature, but so is not getting a 10, so why put yourself sub human?
Re: A (Hopefully) Thought Provoking Quiz
from the pespective of someone to who 10m is a second shooting sport, and with only a year or two of competitive shooting behind him (nothing bigger than a county paper league in 10m)...national in FT.
feel free to comment...:)
1. Match preparation starts
i think i started when i did my first comp...i havent stopped thinking about it since...i dont have much of a routine, but preparation for a big event normally starts the week before. As i shoot competively at least once a week there's always something i'm working on...
specific preparation is normally the evening before...but i dont take it seriously enough that i wont have a couple of pints before hand, and it's not unknown for me to have 5-6 hours sleep before a 2 hour drive and 30 mins before getting on the range...but its meant to be fun hehe.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
grief, i dont know... most of my problems occur at the shot release, so i prefer to try and stay stable relaxed until and through that point whilst holding a clear 10 shot...
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
practice it...and if you can shoot comps...because it seems to be always slightly different in competition to practice. I try and blur the boundary by shooting not spending too much time practicing unless i'm working on something specific. I find it can build up too much anitipation and stress before a competition. If i can repeat the result i want several times i move on.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
it has to be right...i think its unique to the individual but exploring the envelope of the possible methods can bring results and perspective. I feel it should be subconcious if correct.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
depends on what your trying to do...the body has a memory as well as the mind...
6. The proper use of open sights entails
dunno, i just look for a clear ring around it of equal distance in one go...but i often find i can be a little too fixated by that and then i have to manually shift to think about taking the shot...that leads to problems. If it all goes well, the above doesnt happen.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
attitude
imagery (visualization)
NPA
stance
trigger operation
sight alignment
hold
grip
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
easy
b. False
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
easy...the law of diminishing returns means you have to work hard to gain the little you still need.
b. False
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
b. False
its never over...even if someone told you that you were bottom, there's always something more to learn.
feel free to comment...:)
1. Match preparation starts
i think i started when i did my first comp...i havent stopped thinking about it since...i dont have much of a routine, but preparation for a big event normally starts the week before. As i shoot competively at least once a week there's always something i'm working on...
specific preparation is normally the evening before...but i dont take it seriously enough that i wont have a couple of pints before hand, and it's not unknown for me to have 5-6 hours sleep before a 2 hour drive and 30 mins before getting on the range...but its meant to be fun hehe.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
grief, i dont know... most of my problems occur at the shot release, so i prefer to try and stay stable relaxed until and through that point whilst holding a clear 10 shot...
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
practice it...and if you can shoot comps...because it seems to be always slightly different in competition to practice. I try and blur the boundary by shooting not spending too much time practicing unless i'm working on something specific. I find it can build up too much anitipation and stress before a competition. If i can repeat the result i want several times i move on.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
it has to be right...i think its unique to the individual but exploring the envelope of the possible methods can bring results and perspective. I feel it should be subconcious if correct.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
depends on what your trying to do...the body has a memory as well as the mind...
6. The proper use of open sights entails
dunno, i just look for a clear ring around it of equal distance in one go...but i often find i can be a little too fixated by that and then i have to manually shift to think about taking the shot...that leads to problems. If it all goes well, the above doesnt happen.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
attitude
imagery (visualization)
NPA
stance
trigger operation
sight alignment
hold
grip
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
easy
b. False
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
easy...the law of diminishing returns means you have to work hard to gain the little you still need.
b. False
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
b. False
its never over...even if someone told you that you were bottom, there's always something more to learn.
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Ed Hall
My Answer to Question #1
First, thank you again to all the participants. It's nice to see a four digit "Views" cell. Of course, my main hope is that someone finds some helpful information within this thread.
Since it is seeming to be a time consuming task to construct my answers with all the details I want to include, and all the interruptions keep piling in, I decided to separate my answers to each question. I can't say how long it will be between posts. There have been many things I'd wanted to respond to, but haven't had the time to do them justice - my apologies. I may still respond to some of these as I can fit in the time and read over all the material to refresh my memory. For now, here is my response to the first question:
1. Match preparation starts (d) during the training sessions before a match.
(General competition training starts when you decide to become a competitor.)
There are lots of good points in the several responses posed to this question. My view, which drove my response, is borne from the idea that different Major Championships at varying venues may play a role in how you customize your training. But before I take off into that viewpoint, let's digress to something even earlier in a shooter's history, that will also be revisited later in this series of answers - specifically, why is the shooter involved in the sport?
The answer to that question may be as varied as the number of shooters, because every shooter has a unique desire. One of the biggest problems, but a very important subject to take to heart, is being honest with one's self in what is truly sought by the individual. Sure, everyone would "LIKE" to excel, but only a few "elite" will reach the top ranks. A shooter needs to understand where competition fits into their life before they even consider goals. You can't have realistic goals if you don't know how important the goals will be.
Some feel that handicaps and classification systems are actually detrimental to some of the shooters because it allows them to succeed at lower levels. The debate could go on for quite a length of time, but basically, if you're happy where you are (perhaps the top of the b class) you may not have the incentive to move up. That's OK! But, you need to be truthful with yourself. Don't set your goal at winning your local range league if you're currently in last place and you know the only time you'll spend on shooting is during the weekly league itself.
So, now let's return to match preparation. If you've set your sights on a particular competitive goal, all things you do to advance toward that goal are preparations from that point forward. But, as mentioned above, there may be specific changes made to ready yourself for specific competitions. In the US Conventional competition, the change is quite significant if you are moving from Indoor shooting to Outdoor. For Free Pistol, you might find one venue to be windier than another. You might change your preparations to include wind awareness for the training leading up to that match.
Other answers to follow...
As always, all comments welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Since it is seeming to be a time consuming task to construct my answers with all the details I want to include, and all the interruptions keep piling in, I decided to separate my answers to each question. I can't say how long it will be between posts. There have been many things I'd wanted to respond to, but haven't had the time to do them justice - my apologies. I may still respond to some of these as I can fit in the time and read over all the material to refresh my memory. For now, here is my response to the first question:
My answer is:Originally, I wrote:1. Match preparation starts
a. with the preparation period.
b. when you get up on the day of the match.
c. on the evening prior to the match.
d. during the training sessions before a match.
1. Match preparation starts (d) during the training sessions before a match.
(General competition training starts when you decide to become a competitor.)
There are lots of good points in the several responses posed to this question. My view, which drove my response, is borne from the idea that different Major Championships at varying venues may play a role in how you customize your training. But before I take off into that viewpoint, let's digress to something even earlier in a shooter's history, that will also be revisited later in this series of answers - specifically, why is the shooter involved in the sport?
The answer to that question may be as varied as the number of shooters, because every shooter has a unique desire. One of the biggest problems, but a very important subject to take to heart, is being honest with one's self in what is truly sought by the individual. Sure, everyone would "LIKE" to excel, but only a few "elite" will reach the top ranks. A shooter needs to understand where competition fits into their life before they even consider goals. You can't have realistic goals if you don't know how important the goals will be.
Some feel that handicaps and classification systems are actually detrimental to some of the shooters because it allows them to succeed at lower levels. The debate could go on for quite a length of time, but basically, if you're happy where you are (perhaps the top of the b class) you may not have the incentive to move up. That's OK! But, you need to be truthful with yourself. Don't set your goal at winning your local range league if you're currently in last place and you know the only time you'll spend on shooting is during the weekly league itself.
So, now let's return to match preparation. If you've set your sights on a particular competitive goal, all things you do to advance toward that goal are preparations from that point forward. But, as mentioned above, there may be specific changes made to ready yourself for specific competitions. In the US Conventional competition, the change is quite significant if you are moving from Indoor shooting to Outdoor. For Free Pistol, you might find one venue to be windier than another. You might change your preparations to include wind awareness for the training leading up to that match.
Other answers to follow...
As always, all comments welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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CR10XGuest
Ed:
Thanks for the posting on question number 1. My response was "none of the above" although D was a good start. And your comment about the perspective and desire of the competitor is very appropriate. It's one of the thngs I address very early on in my notes and collected responses to various questions about conventional pistol shooting (So You Wanna Shoot Bullseye? - not available in your local bookstore)
That's why from my perspective, match preparation starts when you decide you're going to compete. Then your goal or level of competition is what level determines the depth of match preparation that will be needed.
For me, everything after that decision to compete is match preparation.
From goal setting; resource planning, scheduling, mental training or just getting your life priorities in place; it is all Match Preparation. Be sure to get your life priorities in place before setting your goals. This an area of potential conflict that can make or break a shooter.
Match preparation includes proper and appropriate equipment purchases, gun modifications, reloading, ammo purchases, maintenance, physical training, mental imagery, etc. Again, for me, match preparation is not just for training. Match preparation is also creating the conditions to make training and performing as effective as possible.
Finally, match preparation is also preparting for the match. Do you train for stopping half way through a slow fire string to simulate a range or gun problem? Do you prepare by just walking up to the line, taking the appropriate prep period to set up and get your first record shot off in the appropriate amount of time. Can you get out of your car, walk to the line and shoot a 10 with the .45 first thing in the morning? Match prepration is not only traning for these, but thinking about them and preparing mentally to address these issues. So for me, thinking about these issues and developing training plans occurs before the traning session as well.
Which also ties hand in hand with my answer on question 7. Attitude is the one thing that will determine success or failure, either in preparation or execution.
Just some rambling thoughts, got to get back to work
Cecil Rhodes
Thanks for the posting on question number 1. My response was "none of the above" although D was a good start. And your comment about the perspective and desire of the competitor is very appropriate. It's one of the thngs I address very early on in my notes and collected responses to various questions about conventional pistol shooting (So You Wanna Shoot Bullseye? - not available in your local bookstore)
That's why from my perspective, match preparation starts when you decide you're going to compete. Then your goal or level of competition is what level determines the depth of match preparation that will be needed.
For me, everything after that decision to compete is match preparation.
From goal setting; resource planning, scheduling, mental training or just getting your life priorities in place; it is all Match Preparation. Be sure to get your life priorities in place before setting your goals. This an area of potential conflict that can make or break a shooter.
Match preparation includes proper and appropriate equipment purchases, gun modifications, reloading, ammo purchases, maintenance, physical training, mental imagery, etc. Again, for me, match preparation is not just for training. Match preparation is also creating the conditions to make training and performing as effective as possible.
Finally, match preparation is also preparting for the match. Do you train for stopping half way through a slow fire string to simulate a range or gun problem? Do you prepare by just walking up to the line, taking the appropriate prep period to set up and get your first record shot off in the appropriate amount of time. Can you get out of your car, walk to the line and shoot a 10 with the .45 first thing in the morning? Match prepration is not only traning for these, but thinking about them and preparing mentally to address these issues. So for me, thinking about these issues and developing training plans occurs before the traning session as well.
Which also ties hand in hand with my answer on question 7. Attitude is the one thing that will determine success or failure, either in preparation or execution.
Just some rambling thoughts, got to get back to work
Cecil Rhodes
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Tom
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:43 pm
- Location: On the mountain overlooking Manchvegas, USA
My 2 cents
1. Match preparation starts
a. with the preparation period.
b. when you get up on the day of the match.
c. on the evening prior to the match.
d. during the training sessions before a match.
C: The night before when I pack the box with the correct pistols and ammo for the match.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
a. has to sit stationary on the center of the bull.
b. has to be continually and consciously corrected to keep it centered.
c. should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
d. should be rigid, like a vise, to be effective.
B: I trust my hold and aiming area. My hold never stops moving, I let my subconscious work the trigger cause it's better than I am at it.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
a. perform the desired task over and over.
b. allow the task to "perform itself" by making use of the subconscious.
c. observe daily indicators and shift technique accordingly.
d. compete in as many championships as possible.
B: See above about subconscious.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
a. has to be slow to be consistent.
b. starts just as the aligned sights settle in the center.
c. has to be fast to be consistent.
d. completes as the aligned sights settle in the center.
E: I let my subconscious do it for me.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
c. make that event a goal.
d. study all the details about the event.
A: Perform the event over and over as correctly as you can so your subconscious learns it and then just let it take over.
6. The proper use of open sights entails
a. aligning the sights with the center of the bull.
b. using a set pattern to check alignment, i.e. left gap, right gap, level tops, etc.
c. fixing your focus on a single point of the front sight.
d. placing the bull on top of the front sight image.
C: Best shooting advise I was ever given. "Look at the front sight and work the trigger"
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
1. __6__ a. NPA
2. __1__ b. sight alignment
3. __3__ c. grip
4. __7__ d. hold
5. __2__ e. trigger operation
6. __5__ f. stance
7. __4__ g. attitude
8. __8__ h. imagery (visualization)
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
a. True
b. False
Maybe, if you called a 10 it was, if you called a 6 or couldn't call it at all, it wasn't.
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
a. True
b. False
Yes and no, I have found that "the better" you are, you can separate the aspects of practice into individual tasks and focus on one or two aspects that you want to reinforce in your subconscious. I have found that I use less rounds total in practice doing this.
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
a. True
b. False
B:Na, it just means you have to stop thinking too hard and just put the gun up and shoot.
Sorry if my answers differ a lot from what is accepted as "normal" for most. I didn't start out in the NRA or ISSF world, I started in the PPC, RIPS and IPSC world. These matches differed every event and sometimes even during the event if the props or targets failed. Because of constantly changing courses of fire, varying distances and shooting positions, I developed what I consider a very minimalist approach to all of my shooting.
I separate the course of fire from the aspect of firing the pistol. I tend to strip away anything that I find is wasted motion, mentally taxing or complicated. I strive to whittle my shooting technique down to what I consider the 3 basic functions of a shot: Keep the sight picture/alignment consistent from target to target, work the trigger subconsciously and control the follow through after the break right to the next shot. I found that letting go of what was beyond my control and focusing on my 3 foundations of a good shot, I was able to improve.
Sorry for the bit of a tangent off the topic but I wanted to add a bit of my views so that my short answers to the survey wouldn't seem flip or sarcastic, they are as my shooting style is, minimalist.
Tom
a. with the preparation period.
b. when you get up on the day of the match.
c. on the evening prior to the match.
d. during the training sessions before a match.
C: The night before when I pack the box with the correct pistols and ammo for the match.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
a. has to sit stationary on the center of the bull.
b. has to be continually and consciously corrected to keep it centered.
c. should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
d. should be rigid, like a vise, to be effective.
B: I trust my hold and aiming area. My hold never stops moving, I let my subconscious work the trigger cause it's better than I am at it.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
a. perform the desired task over and over.
b. allow the task to "perform itself" by making use of the subconscious.
c. observe daily indicators and shift technique accordingly.
d. compete in as many championships as possible.
B: See above about subconscious.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
a. has to be slow to be consistent.
b. starts just as the aligned sights settle in the center.
c. has to be fast to be consistent.
d. completes as the aligned sights settle in the center.
E: I let my subconscious do it for me.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
c. make that event a goal.
d. study all the details about the event.
A: Perform the event over and over as correctly as you can so your subconscious learns it and then just let it take over.
6. The proper use of open sights entails
a. aligning the sights with the center of the bull.
b. using a set pattern to check alignment, i.e. left gap, right gap, level tops, etc.
c. fixing your focus on a single point of the front sight.
d. placing the bull on top of the front sight image.
C: Best shooting advise I was ever given. "Look at the front sight and work the trigger"
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
1. __6__ a. NPA
2. __1__ b. sight alignment
3. __3__ c. grip
4. __7__ d. hold
5. __2__ e. trigger operation
6. __5__ f. stance
7. __4__ g. attitude
8. __8__ h. imagery (visualization)
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
a. True
b. False
Maybe, if you called a 10 it was, if you called a 6 or couldn't call it at all, it wasn't.
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
a. True
b. False
Yes and no, I have found that "the better" you are, you can separate the aspects of practice into individual tasks and focus on one or two aspects that you want to reinforce in your subconscious. I have found that I use less rounds total in practice doing this.
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
a. True
b. False
B:Na, it just means you have to stop thinking too hard and just put the gun up and shoot.
Sorry if my answers differ a lot from what is accepted as "normal" for most. I didn't start out in the NRA or ISSF world, I started in the PPC, RIPS and IPSC world. These matches differed every event and sometimes even during the event if the props or targets failed. Because of constantly changing courses of fire, varying distances and shooting positions, I developed what I consider a very minimalist approach to all of my shooting.
I separate the course of fire from the aspect of firing the pistol. I tend to strip away anything that I find is wasted motion, mentally taxing or complicated. I strive to whittle my shooting technique down to what I consider the 3 basic functions of a shot: Keep the sight picture/alignment consistent from target to target, work the trigger subconsciously and control the follow through after the break right to the next shot. I found that letting go of what was beyond my control and focusing on my 3 foundations of a good shot, I was able to improve.
Sorry for the bit of a tangent off the topic but I wanted to add a bit of my views so that my short answers to the survey wouldn't seem flip or sarcastic, they are as my shooting style is, minimalist.
Tom
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Ed Hall
My Answer to Question #2
Here's my second installment of details. In checking over the previous responses, I find that most of them agree with my answer. But, of course, I feel compelled to provide some additional comments.(smile)
2. The hold for the perfect shot (c) should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
For this question, I thought I'd examine each of the possible answers with pros and cons as appropriate, or more correctly, as they agree or disagree with my belief(s). But, in checking over the responses I see that no one chose the first answer, probably because we all realize that we aren't capable of meeting it, so I'll skip right to the second possible answer.
I noticed some did (or kind of did) choose the second answer. The reason I believe this to be incorrect, is due to how our conscious vs. subconscious systems work. As long as our conscious is involved, there is a "stop action" order given to our subconscious, until whatever our conscious is trying to correct is judged OK, or back in tolerance. IOW, our conscious deems something out of acceptance, gives a pause order, takes control, makes adjustments, judges item corrected, rescinds pause order. So, what's wrong with this? Well, the only way to have an undisturbed hold (wobble) over the aiming area is to, well, not disturb it. Every time a conscious correction is made, the subconscious has to start over in its calculations. The next thing we notice is that we've been holding for awhile and haven't shot - what's wrong with that darn subconscious? We told it to fire (a lot of times - every time we made a correction, we then said go ahead, finish it). If your subconscious isn't firing, maybe it doesn't like the control it's under.
Most of the replies gave the same answer as I list for mine - c. should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area. I firmly believe, through my own experiences, that this is far superior to any conscious corrections, and is the only way to achieve the long described goal of operating the trigger without disturbing the sights.
As to the last answer, only one reply made mention of it, but I think consistency is more appropriate than rigidity. And the vise-like hold is really more of a preference, although there is a direct correlation with trigger weight. I find it rather difficult to control a four pound trigger with a two-pound hold. I also find it difficult to operate my several gram Free Pistol trigger easily if I have a death grip on the gun.
More later...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Here's my second installment of details. In checking over the previous responses, I find that most of them agree with my answer. But, of course, I feel compelled to provide some additional comments.(smile)
My answer is:Originally I wrote:2. The hold for the perfect shot
a. has to sit stationary on the center of the bull.
b. has to be continually and consciously corrected to keep it centered.
c. should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
d. should be rigid, like a vise, to be effective.
2. The hold for the perfect shot (c) should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
For this question, I thought I'd examine each of the possible answers with pros and cons as appropriate, or more correctly, as they agree or disagree with my belief(s). But, in checking over the responses I see that no one chose the first answer, probably because we all realize that we aren't capable of meeting it, so I'll skip right to the second possible answer.
I noticed some did (or kind of did) choose the second answer. The reason I believe this to be incorrect, is due to how our conscious vs. subconscious systems work. As long as our conscious is involved, there is a "stop action" order given to our subconscious, until whatever our conscious is trying to correct is judged OK, or back in tolerance. IOW, our conscious deems something out of acceptance, gives a pause order, takes control, makes adjustments, judges item corrected, rescinds pause order. So, what's wrong with this? Well, the only way to have an undisturbed hold (wobble) over the aiming area is to, well, not disturb it. Every time a conscious correction is made, the subconscious has to start over in its calculations. The next thing we notice is that we've been holding for awhile and haven't shot - what's wrong with that darn subconscious? We told it to fire (a lot of times - every time we made a correction, we then said go ahead, finish it). If your subconscious isn't firing, maybe it doesn't like the control it's under.
Most of the replies gave the same answer as I list for mine - c. should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area. I firmly believe, through my own experiences, that this is far superior to any conscious corrections, and is the only way to achieve the long described goal of operating the trigger without disturbing the sights.
As to the last answer, only one reply made mention of it, but I think consistency is more appropriate than rigidity. And the vise-like hold is really more of a preference, although there is a direct correlation with trigger weight. I find it rather difficult to control a four pound trigger with a two-pound hold. I also find it difficult to operate my several gram Free Pistol trigger easily if I have a death grip on the gun.
More later...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
1. Match preparation starts
depends on the comp. if you are training for say the olympics, say 8yrs, then for a club shoot, couple hrs.
but say if you goal is the club shoot, couple weeks at least.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
doesn't exist, (perfect shot) any shot landing in the middle will do.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
consistently good/bad?
best way to be the best is stop worrying about consistency. that is to create peaks, but sometimes there are lows.
trick is to train to peak at the right time
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
here we go again,(perfect shot) ed, are you a rifle shooter? no offence.
the trigger is never conciously fired, stages may be taken up, but the firing is done subconciously when the pre trained conditions are met, it goes off. if something else is going on in your head, instead of the correct conditions, a poor result is likely.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
b. visualize that event.
that is the only correct answer, but it is not your subconcious you are telling.
6. The proper use of open sights entails
for a beginner, just lign em up and squeeze.
for you ed, you have a sight picture you are looking for in relation to the target, when these conditions are met. hopefully it goes off
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
1. ____ a. NPA
2. ____ b. sight alignment
3. ____ c. grip
4. ____ d. hold
5. ____ e. trigger operation
6. ____ f. stance
7. ____ g. attitude
8. ____ h. imagery (visualization)
No 1 is attitude ed, without that the rest don't matter.
if you dont beleive me look it up in the dictionary.
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
a. True
no such thing as a bad ten. doesnt matter what it looked like, you got it there.
people think because you pushed it in it was bad, well that same thinking is what pulls it out!
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
a. True
definately true, that is to a point. the type of training changes, less shooting is required.
shooting is for maint purposes only. well depends if you want consistency, or to win comps.
at higher levels, it is said that it is 90% mental.
shooting is for the other 10%, muscle memory
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
Well a prone shooter looking to shoot 600 is in lots trouble, but if you are looking at 550 AP not such a problem.
in either case if you think the match is lost, it is!
if you had the attitude it is not lost, it would be unlikely you shot the poor shots in the first place
so this is just my opinion.
there are so many variables that the question itself is the problem.
what you beleive to be correct is the correct answer until you learn otherwise.
bryan
depends on the comp. if you are training for say the olympics, say 8yrs, then for a club shoot, couple hrs.
but say if you goal is the club shoot, couple weeks at least.
2. The hold for the perfect shot
doesn't exist, (perfect shot) any shot landing in the middle will do.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to
consistently good/bad?
best way to be the best is stop worrying about consistency. that is to create peaks, but sometimes there are lows.
trick is to train to peak at the right time
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot
here we go again,(perfect shot) ed, are you a rifle shooter? no offence.
the trigger is never conciously fired, stages may be taken up, but the firing is done subconciously when the pre trained conditions are met, it goes off. if something else is going on in your head, instead of the correct conditions, a poor result is likely.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to
b. visualize that event.
that is the only correct answer, but it is not your subconcious you are telling.
6. The proper use of open sights entails
for a beginner, just lign em up and squeeze.
for you ed, you have a sight picture you are looking for in relation to the target, when these conditions are met. hopefully it goes off
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):
1. ____ a. NPA
2. ____ b. sight alignment
3. ____ c. grip
4. ____ d. hold
5. ____ e. trigger operation
6. ____ f. stance
7. ____ g. attitude
8. ____ h. imagery (visualization)
No 1 is attitude ed, without that the rest don't matter.
if you dont beleive me look it up in the dictionary.
8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.
a. True
no such thing as a bad ten. doesnt matter what it looked like, you got it there.
people think because you pushed it in it was bad, well that same thinking is what pulls it out!
9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.
a. True
definately true, that is to a point. the type of training changes, less shooting is required.
shooting is for maint purposes only. well depends if you want consistency, or to win comps.
at higher levels, it is said that it is 90% mental.
shooting is for the other 10%, muscle memory
10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.
Well a prone shooter looking to shoot 600 is in lots trouble, but if you are looking at 550 AP not such a problem.
in either case if you think the match is lost, it is!
if you had the attitude it is not lost, it would be unlikely you shot the poor shots in the first place
so this is just my opinion.
there are so many variables that the question itself is the problem.
what you beleive to be correct is the correct answer until you learn otherwise.
bryan
-
Fred
Hi Ed,
In thinking about your latest comments, I realized that there seems to be some ambiguity in question 2, and therefore in the answers. Perhaps you were thinking of hold using a dot sight, but I would like to apply the question to open sights. Do you believe that alignment, as opposed to aim, should not be consciously corrected, but rather allowed to float? Do you think that, once we teach ourselves correct alignment, we can leave that to the subconscious in the same way we can leave staying in the aiming area to the subconscious? I would like to believe that it is true, but I have found that trusting my alignment to my subconscious can sometimes produce some very bad shots. I would appreciate your comments on this.
Thanks,
FredB
In thinking about your latest comments, I realized that there seems to be some ambiguity in question 2, and therefore in the answers. Perhaps you were thinking of hold using a dot sight, but I would like to apply the question to open sights. Do you believe that alignment, as opposed to aim, should not be consciously corrected, but rather allowed to float? Do you think that, once we teach ourselves correct alignment, we can leave that to the subconscious in the same way we can leave staying in the aiming area to the subconscious? I would like to believe that it is true, but I have found that trusting my alignment to my subconscious can sometimes produce some very bad shots. I would appreciate your comments on this.
Thanks,
FredB
-
Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Fred,
If I understand you correctly, there are times when your subconscious is maintaining alignment, maintaining aim area, and controlling the trigger? I have never been able to that in precision shooting, nor am I sure that I would want to. It was a common state for me when I was shooting action/combat pistol. One problem then was that my subconscious couldn't always distinguish between shoot and no-shoot targets. :-(
FredM
If I understand you correctly, there are times when your subconscious is maintaining alignment, maintaining aim area, and controlling the trigger? I have never been able to that in precision shooting, nor am I sure that I would want to. It was a common state for me when I was shooting action/combat pistol. One problem then was that my subconscious couldn't always distinguish between shoot and no-shoot targets. :-(
FredM
-
Fred
FredM,
Yes, you basically restated my question to Ed, i.e. is this a "good thing"? I'm assuming that, when you consciously concentrate on alignment, you are also consciously making tiny corrections. It seems likely that those tiny corrections would be made using the wrist, which can be the source of really bad angular errors, as well as disrupting the subconscious flow of trigger release. Therefore, I figured that allowing the subconscious to handle alignment, as well as aim and trigger, should be desirable. But in practise, it often seems to turn into some really sloppy shooting, so I end up going back to careful conscious attention to alignment. A further problem is that I find the distinction between conscious and subconscious gets very blurry, the more I think about it. For example, if you choose to focus your concentration on the front sight alignment, is this only a conscious process, or can it be done subconsciously?
FredB
Yes, you basically restated my question to Ed, i.e. is this a "good thing"? I'm assuming that, when you consciously concentrate on alignment, you are also consciously making tiny corrections. It seems likely that those tiny corrections would be made using the wrist, which can be the source of really bad angular errors, as well as disrupting the subconscious flow of trigger release. Therefore, I figured that allowing the subconscious to handle alignment, as well as aim and trigger, should be desirable. But in practise, it often seems to turn into some really sloppy shooting, so I end up going back to careful conscious attention to alignment. A further problem is that I find the distinction between conscious and subconscious gets very blurry, the more I think about it. For example, if you choose to focus your concentration on the front sight alignment, is this only a conscious process, or can it be done subconsciously?
FredB
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Steve Swartz
Guys:
Just my $0.02 . . . but IMNSHO this issue is absolutely the central element of technique. In my view, there are 3 things required to shoot a ten:
1) Absolutely perfect trigger manipulation
2) Absolutely perfect trigger release (timing)
3) Absolutely perfect sight alignment
Everything else (grip stance breathing hold etc.) are important only as they relate to 1-3 above. To the degree that "Hold" for example messes with (or supports) your ability to release the shot then it is important- otherwise it isn't.
O.K.
We have three levels of concentration/focus:
a) Conscious control (deliberate actions)
b) Semi-autonomic (like breathing, blinking, swallowing)
c) Subconscious
[O.K., add "unconscious" like after too many beers . . . . ]
Consider that we can consciously manage a small number (one) of relatively simple tasks; and that with training we can make simple "kinesthetic" tasks semi-autonomic, and that only the subconscious can handle more complex phenomena, then the order of battle falls out thusly:
Absolutely perfect trigger manipulation - Control Semi-Autonomically
Absolutely perfect trigger release (timing) - Control Subconsciously
Absolutely perfect sight alignment - Control Consciously
So design your training plan around the behaviours that make these things happen
Steve Swartz
Just my $0.02 . . . but IMNSHO this issue is absolutely the central element of technique. In my view, there are 3 things required to shoot a ten:
1) Absolutely perfect trigger manipulation
2) Absolutely perfect trigger release (timing)
3) Absolutely perfect sight alignment
Everything else (grip stance breathing hold etc.) are important only as they relate to 1-3 above. To the degree that "Hold" for example messes with (or supports) your ability to release the shot then it is important- otherwise it isn't.
O.K.
We have three levels of concentration/focus:
a) Conscious control (deliberate actions)
b) Semi-autonomic (like breathing, blinking, swallowing)
c) Subconscious
[O.K., add "unconscious" like after too many beers . . . . ]
Consider that we can consciously manage a small number (one) of relatively simple tasks; and that with training we can make simple "kinesthetic" tasks semi-autonomic, and that only the subconscious can handle more complex phenomena, then the order of battle falls out thusly:
Absolutely perfect trigger manipulation - Control Semi-Autonomically
Absolutely perfect trigger release (timing) - Control Subconsciously
Absolutely perfect sight alignment - Control Consciously
So design your training plan around the behaviours that make these things happen
Steve Swartz
-
Fred
Steve,Steve Swartz wrote: Absolutely perfect trigger manipulation - Control Semi-Autonomically
Absolutely perfect trigger release (timing) - Control Subconsciously
Absolutely perfect sight alignment - Control Consciously
So design your training plan around the behaviours that make these things happen
Steve Swartz
Thanks for the clarification. What you describe above is what I had been trying to train myself to do....until Ed got me thinking. Doesn't "control consciously" imply (minute) corrective actions, most likely done at the wrist? And don't ANY kind of corrective actions during the hold disrupt the semi-autonomic manipulation of the trigger and the subconscious timing of the trigger release?
Ed's answer to question #2 above seems to be advocating leaving everything to either subconscious or semi-autonomic control, but it was not clear if he included sight alignment in that answer. Based on other things he has written, I gather he tends to think everything can be removed from conscious control, i.e. nothing should be "corrected". I hope he will clarify this.
FredB
au·to·nom·ic (ô'tə-nŏm'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Physiology
1. Of, relating to, or controlled by the autonomic nervous system.
2. Occurring involuntarily; automatic: an autonomic reflex.
2. Resulting from internal stimuli; spontaneous.
I.E. Hold/alignment "corrections" and trigger pressure are reflexes to a sense of being in control. Sensing control is more inclusive of the shot process than sensing sights aligned.
Ramble on.
adj.
1. Physiology
1. Of, relating to, or controlled by the autonomic nervous system.
2. Occurring involuntarily; automatic: an autonomic reflex.
2. Resulting from internal stimuli; spontaneous.
I.E. Hold/alignment "corrections" and trigger pressure are reflexes to a sense of being in control. Sensing control is more inclusive of the shot process than sensing sights aligned.
Ramble on.
-
Pradeep5
pradeep5
you had a very good coach.
shooting is simple enough until someone comes along and complicates it.
this debate over what controls what will go on forever while the people debating it split the black box into 2 parts, ie concious and sub concious.
this lies the problem, leading to lots of confusion. but this is the main stream school of thought, and is wrong!
if you break your black box up into more areas, understanding what is going on starts making sense.
your brain is an interesting thing, what you get out is generally a direct result of what you put in.
a few of you are filling it with s#@t looking for the magic holy grail of shooting 10's. my advise is stop looking for that missing ingriedient, as you probably already have it.
find a good coach (good luck) and do as they say!
I also recommend all shooters to devote a portion of there training program to coaching.
you get more out of coaching for an hr, than training for 8.
that doesn't mean if you coach all day you can take the week off!
like you have to do a safety course to start shooting, you need to do a coaching course to start coaching!
imho
you had a very good coach.
shooting is simple enough until someone comes along and complicates it.
this debate over what controls what will go on forever while the people debating it split the black box into 2 parts, ie concious and sub concious.
this lies the problem, leading to lots of confusion. but this is the main stream school of thought, and is wrong!
if you break your black box up into more areas, understanding what is going on starts making sense.
your brain is an interesting thing, what you get out is generally a direct result of what you put in.
a few of you are filling it with s#@t looking for the magic holy grail of shooting 10's. my advise is stop looking for that missing ingriedient, as you probably already have it.
find a good coach (good luck) and do as they say!
I also recommend all shooters to devote a portion of there training program to coaching.
you get more out of coaching for an hr, than training for 8.
that doesn't mean if you coach all day you can take the week off!
like you have to do a safety course to start shooting, you need to do a coaching course to start coaching!
imho