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Free Pistol - roll trigger?

 
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Guest_
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Free Pistol - roll trigger? Reply with quote

I'm going to buy Morini CM84E next month. I never shoot free pistol before but once I've got a "ok" technique (and result!) with AP. I thought I would give it a try. Maybe to prove that my slow fire technique is perfect.

I've been shooting many guns. I always shoot with a long pre-travel - roll trigger. I have notice that the Morini CM84E cannot be adjusted (only weight is adjustable)

How to make it "feel" like it has long pre-travel, roll trigger? or it's not possible? If not possible, then I may have to look for the other choices.
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Steve Swartz
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Morini CM84E trigger is adjustable . . . HOWEVER

1) What do you mean by "pre travel? Do you mean you are looking for a two-stage trigger? Or do you prefer a bit of "slack" prior to engagement? I have not found a way to create slack in the Morini trigger; then again, this is an unusual preference for free pistol so is not noted as a difficulty for most shooters.

2) The Morini works as a contact, on a lever, pulled against a spring. When you move the lever against the spring, the contact is broken and the firing pin is released. There is no sear. This means (on the one hand) that you will never be able to duplicate the sliding creep of sear engagement followed by sudden drop off of pressure present on every mechanical trigger. On the other hand, the "feel" of the Morini trigger replicates the smoothest "roll" I have ever felt (although technically it is not a "roll" in the sense of a mechanical system).

Well, O.K., sorry for the long reply but I think you should borrow/rent an 84E and shoot it for a while before you commit. The feel of the electronic trigger is VERY DIFFERENT from any mechanical trigger- and it has its detractors as well as acolytes.

DIFFERENT may or may not be BETTER for your personal tastes.

Bottom line: there is no way the 84E will give you the same feel as any mechanical; and vice versa. This could be a Good Thing or it could be a Bad Thing.

Steve Swartz
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Bill A



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FP triggers are so light (MUCH lighter than AP triggers) that roll triggers aren't feasible or desirable. When you get your Morini you'll see what I mean. The weight adjustments you mention go from very very light to super light.

Shoot 10's,
Bill
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PardiniGSP



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: cm84 trigger Reply with quote

"When you get your Morini you'll see what I mean. The weight adjustments you mention go from very very light to super light."

Actually the CM84E trigger is adjustable to 900 grams, almost twice that of an air pistol.

See: http://www.morini.ch/cm84.htm
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Guest_
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Swartz wrote:
The Morini CM84E trigger is adjustable . . . HOWEVER

1) What do you mean by "pre travel? Do you mean you are looking for a two-stage trigger? Or do you prefer a bit of "slack" prior to engagement? I have not found a way to create slack in the Morini trigger; then again, this is an unusual preference for free pistol so is not noted as a difficulty for most shooters.

2) The Morini works as a contact, on a lever, pulled against a spring. When you move the lever against the spring, the contact is broken and the firing pin is released. There is no sear. This means (on the one hand) that you will never be able to duplicate the sliding creep of sear engagement followed by sudden drop off of pressure present on every mechanical trigger. On the other hand, the "feel" of the Morini trigger replicates the smoothest "roll" I have ever felt (although technically it is not a "roll" in the sense of a mechanical system).

Well, O.K., sorry for the long reply but I think you should borrow/rent an 84E and shoot it for a while before you commit. The feel of the electronic trigger is VERY DIFFERENT from any mechanical trigger- and it has its detractors as well as acolytes.

DIFFERENT may or may not be BETTER for your personal tastes.

Bottom line: there is no way the 84E will give you the same feel as any mechanical; and vice versa. This could be a Good Thing or it could be a Bad Thing.

Steve Swartz


Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it.

I meant a little bit slack before the shot break. I borrowed a Hammerli from my friend and I was afraid to touch the trigger before the S/A entering aiming area. It's too light for a Center Fire shooter.

If it's not possible or practical. At least, I would like to be able to touch the trigger shoe before I lift the pistol without the fear that the shot will accidently break. so the only solution is increasing the trigger weight?

I'm quite familiar with the electronic trigger, I currently use Pardini SP electronic. I hope it will be ok with CM84E as the pistol is very good and the parts, services are easier to find.

Thank you again!
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Fred
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest,

Most advice about the FP trigger says that you need to put enough weight on the trigger so that you can feel confident in your ability to place your finger on the trigger without causing the gun to fire. Obviously this weight will be different for different people, and for you at different stages of your FP experience. As far as I know, this weight adjustment is the only way a Morini electronic FP trigger can be adjusted.

It is definitely possible, however, to adjust the mechanical triggers of some FPs to provide a slight feeling of motion or "give" before the sear is released. From my own experience, this can be done with the TOZ, the later Hammerli 150, and the Morini CM80. Probably others can do this as well. In this situation, you definitely need to try before you buy.

HTH,
FredB
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David M



Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 624

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Free triggers Reply with quote

If you set the trigger up with the No 2 spring (same as the air pistol first stage spring) and use about 65 - 85g trigger weight, the slack or roll you want is in the fat on your finger.
As you pressure the trigger there is a little slack on the pad of your finger ( very light touch), pull through this and then seat firm on the bone, a slight additional pressure the shot will break.
With practice you should be able to tickle a free trigger up and down without firing a shot.
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Steve Swartz
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree totally with David- my "first stage" is compressing the flesh of my finger and the "second stage" is about 20 grams of clean break.

However

You could- theoretically and practically- add slack to your trigger. This would require modifying the geometry of the trigger-lever-contact system. I had thought about doing this work for a friend who struggled with the feel of the single stage spring for a while, but never folowed through.

Once you open up the guts of your Morini, what you can do is add a small, light leaf spring between the trigger and the lever. This will add a "sloppy take-up" to the trigger before it actually engages the lever.

This would take a little mechanical skill and know how . . . you might find a gun smith who would be able to do it for you.

Bottom line, from my personal opinion, I don't see what would be gained by adding take-up to the best trigger design in existence. Many folks just don't like the feel of a constant force spring resistance trigger.

Steve Swartz
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IPshooter



Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Swartz wrote:
Many folks just don't like the feel of a constant force spring resistance trigger.

Steve Swartz


Steve,

I think you know how much I like a Morini trigger. My only complaint with the FP trigger is the inability to increase the amount of travel one feels before the shot breaks.

Let me know if you figure that one out.

Stan

P.S. Reversing it didn't do it for me.
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Bill A



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: cm84 trigger Reply with quote

PardiniGSP wrote:
"When you get your Morini you'll see what I mean. The weight adjustments you mention go from very very light to super light."

Actually the CM84E trigger is adjustable to 900 grams, almost twice that of an air pistol.

See: http://www.morini.ch/cm84.htm


Wow, 900 grams! I've had a TOZ, Hammerli 152 and 160, Walther FP, and Steyr FP and never in my wildest dreams (nightmares?) did I ever imagine that a FP trigger could be set so heavy. Never have had a Morini, alas (handled one once, didn't fire it). Why in the world would anyone want a FP trigger so ungodly heavy? I can't even weigh mine they are set so light, and I set 'em heavier than some shooters do.

Best,
Bill
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Axel



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill A,

Light FP triggers doesn't automaticly mean easier shooting - it can actually be the opposite. For me, about 100 grams is perfect. I can feel the trigger with a "finger flesh roll" without fearing that the gun will fire at the wrong time

Cheers,
Axel
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Steve Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stan:

It requires two screws on the trigger-lever connection. The first screw (aft) is unscrewed "a little bit" and acts as the lever-tripping contact point. The second screw (your "first stage") is forward of the first, and has a very light weight spring between it and the trigger, pushing hte trigger up against the lever.

As you press backward ohn the trigger, it will first compress the "first stage spring" and the trigger will physically rotate downward. When the trigger spring is compressed enough so that it's resistance equals the actual Morini trigger spring, the lever itself will begin to move.

Maybe I should pdf up a diagram for you . . . some drilling is involved and you may want to buy some "spare parts" before attempting.

Steve
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IPshooter



Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Swartz wrote:
Stan:

Maybe I should pdf up a diagram for you . . . some drilling is involved and you may want to buy some "spare parts" before attempting.

Steve


A diagram would be great. And, about the spare parts. Well, if I'm going to drill anything, I'd better have a large number of unmangled parts! ;-)

Stan
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Bill A



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Axel wrote:
Bill A,

Light FP triggers doesn't automaticly mean easier shooting - it can actually be the opposite. For me, about 100 grams is perfect. I can feel the trigger with a "finger flesh roll" without fearing that the gun will fire at the wrong time

Cheers,
Axel


Axel,

Yes, I know. 100 grams seems reasonable for those who like a heavier trigger. But 900???

Shoot 10's,
Bill
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Ed Hall
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve wrote:
Maybe I should pdf up a diagram for you . . . some drilling is involved and you may want to buy some "spare parts" before attempting.


Steve,

If you make a pdf and get it to me, I'll put it up at my site(s) so it can be downloaded by any interested owners.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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Mark Briggs



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 576
Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Bill A. - the CM84 is capable of adjustment to the 900 gram weight by installation of a heavier spring in the trigger mechanism. Correspondingly the trigger may be made to fire reliably at weights down as low as 10 grams by inserting a lighter spring.

As to "why?", all I can say is that it's possible simply because the Morini trigger design is flexible. It's so incredibly simple that the substitution of one spring for another, as well as the adjustment of only one set screw allows the pistol to work across a range of trigger weights that pretty much spans two orders of magnitude. I don't know of any other trigger on the market today that will be as flexible without losing some other important characteristics in the process.

Now the real question is why any shooter would actually adjust his trigger to 900 grams. I don't have an answer for this one, but personally shoot my CM84 in the range of 100grams and use the "fat compression" method mentioned by other posters to allow better trigger control.
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David M



Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 624

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Two Stage Trigger Reply with quote

Some years ago, a couple of Morini free pistols were built with the Airpistol trigger assembly and circuit board, they were shot by the chineese for a while and then changed back. Basically, it did not work.
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