Finger position and trigger blade.

John Ariani · Post by **John Ariani** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:25 am

I have a question.
I note (using my LP 10) that the trigger blade (which leaves an imprint in my finger after about 20 shots) sits on my finger at an approx 45 degree angle. In other words, the blade does not leave a straight up and down mark - it's diagnal.
The LP 10 blade can be adjusted so in fact I could make it sit on my finger at right angles. Surely this would enhance the finger pressure being more even?
Am I the odd one out here - or does everyone have the trigger blade sitting across the contact point on their finger at 45 degrees?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:30 am

Sounds like your finger isn't correctly positioned on the trigger. I can't tell from you description in which way it's out but your finger should be pretty much square on in all directions (at the point of trigger release).

Rob.

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:53 am

RobStubbs wrote:Sounds like your finger isn't correctly positioned on the trigger. I can't tell from you description in which way it's out but your finger should be pretty much square on in all directions (at the point of trigger release).

Rob.

True enough, but the objective is proper trigger release. If you can consistantly release the trigger without any movement of the sight, then the position of the finger on the trigger is OK.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:21 am

45 degrees does sound a bit extreme but I would certainly try swinging the trigger out to the side. You may find that you need to move the trigger forward when you do this.

You will probably find that it doesn't make any difference to the actual shot release, but it may feel more natural when moving the trigger to the break position (free play or first stage).

Nicole Hamilton · Post by **Nicole Hamilton** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:49 am

Fred Mannis wrote:If you can consistantly release the trigger without any movement of the sight, then the position of the finger on the trigger is OK.

How many of us are able to do that? :) My attitude is, if someone's shooting at Olympic levels, they must be doing something right and it doesn't much matter what that is. But for the rest of us, I'm with Rob: If you're the only one on the planet using your technique, it seems unlikely the whole rest of the world got it wrong. For us ordinary mortals, even if you're doing "OK," one key to doing better is to identify your bad habits and fix them.

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:02 am

RobStubbs wrote:Sounds like your finger isn't correctly positioned on the trigger. I can't tell from you description in which way it's out but your finger should be pretty much square on in all directions (at the point of trigger release).Rob.

Finger position on the trigger is a function of several variables, including the vertical angle of your hand on the grip and the conformation of your trigger finger. Not everybody grips the gun the same way, and not everybody has a perfectly straight trigger finger. For example, my trigger finger has a significant curve in it that makes it nearly impossible for it to cross the trigger at a right angle. A lot of rake in the grip angle will cause the same thing.

What's important is function, not some arbitrary rule. As long as the trigger finger brings the trigger straight back at the point of sear release, it is irrelevant at what angle the finger crosses the blade. Any other adjustment would be strictly a matter of personal comfort. One size does not fit all.

FredB

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:41 am

Fred wrote: What's important is function, not some arbitrary rule. As long as the trigger finger brings the trigger straight back at the point of sear release, it is irrelevant at what angle the finger crosses the blade. Any other adjustment would be strictly a matter of personal comfort. One size does not fit all.

FredB

No-one has suggested we are all the same but 45 degrees is extreme. It suggests something isn't right for it to be so off kilt. Reading it again I suspect the hand is too low down in the grip for some reason, but it's difficult to tell. I still believe the shooter will tend to shoot better with the gun/hand/trigger in the correct (optimum) configuration.

Rob.

Nicole Hamilton · Post by **Nicole Hamilton** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:24 pm

RobStubbs wrote:No-one has suggested we are all the same but 45 degrees is extreme. It suggests something isn't right for it to be so off kilt. Reading it again I suspect the hand is too low down in the grip for some reason, but it's difficult to tell.

I was wondering if the grip was the wrong size, perhaps way too small, forcing John to twist his finger just to keep the tip of it on the trigger.

GaryBF · Post by **GaryBF** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:02 pm

John,
Maybe you and I are freaks since my finger also crosses the trigger blade at a downward angle, although mine is more like 15 degrees. My gun has the old style trigger with the black plastic shoe and I have the shoe rotated so that it is normal to my finger tip. Those adjustments were put there for a reason. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing-make the gun comfortable for you. As for swinging the trigger blade out to the side, I have tried that too with varying success. Moving the trigger blade off axis does leave you open for applying some torque to the gun as you increase finger pressure, which may disturb your sight alignment. If you can control that and it feels right, then do it.

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:16 pm

Just for reference, I'm posting a picture of the trigger positions on my two Steyrs. When I first got the guns, I had even greater angles, but have brought them in as I got more comfortable with them and made some adjustments to the grips.

FredB · Post by **FredB** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:58 am

I'm starting to think that we all are not talking about the same angle. To oversimplify somewhat, there are three angles to consider when the plane of the trigger finger tip meets the plane of the trigger blade.

A. The angle decided by rotation around the vertical axis of the gun. Fred M's pictures above show the triggers slightly rotated around the vertical axis. Most people agree that the finger should be square to the blade in that angle.

B. The angle decided by rotation around the side-to-side axis of the gun. I suspect most people would agree that the finger should be close to square to the blade in that angle as well, although it is rarely discussed.

C. The angle decided by rotation around the longitudinal axis of the gun. This is the angle that I believe the original question was about, although of course I may be wrong about that. This angle, I would maintain, outside of extreme positions such as near vertical, is entirely irrelevant to good triggering function. It varies according to trigger finger conformation and hand position on the grip. Since it's irrelevant, there is no "optimal" position.

I would be very interested in hearing any explanation of why angle "C" matters in the slightest.

FredB

Nicole Hamilton · Post by **Nicole Hamilton** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:58 pm

FredB wrote:I would be very interested in hearing any explanation of why angle "C" matters in the slightest.

Because it could be an indication the grip is the wrong size.

John Ariani · Post by **John Ariani** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:30 pm

Every post has been a great help. Thanks.
I've discovered a lot in the past 48 hours. Grip too small? Yes I think so. Trying next size up today.
Freds photo's in a way mirror what I've done - but to get the blade to sit vertically on my finger I've had to swing it out. Fred B's post - great details.
Moreso - and I'll pursue this today - is the part of my finger that feels most comfortable. I took up this sport a year ago and have always used the first index tip of the finger. With all the blank target training I've done (and it's a lot) I still find the "suprise" shot very rare. The finder freeze very common - thinking I'm still squeezing the trigger - but nothing happens!!! I tried different finger positions yesterday and experienced more suprise shots in one session than I have in one year!!
I guess finger position and trigger blade adjustment play a huge role in enabling the "suprise release" to happen?

darticus · Post by **darticus** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:31 am

Fred Mannis wrote:Just for reference, I'm posting a picture of the trigger positions on my two Steyrs. When I first got the guns, I had even greater angles, but have brought them in as I got more comfortable with them and made some adjustments to the grips.

Hey Fred
This is my lp 10 and lp 1. I never adjusted them. Can you see my trigger adjustments compared to yours. I don't know if the angle is right. On the lp 1 I don't know If you can adjust the angle or just the grips for the angle.Can you give advice on adjustment?

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:59 pm

darticus wrote: On the lp 1 I don't know If you can adjust the angle or just the grips for the angle.Can you give advice on adjustment?

It looks like your triggers are different from mine. If you take a look at http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... p1+trigger
you will see a better picture of the Steyr triggers I am using.

The grip adjustments and the trigger adjustments are for different purposes. The grips should be adjusted so that sights are aligned when the gun is brought up into your natural point of aim.
Once you have that, you can work on the trigger adjustment. As noted in this thread, the ideal case would be to have the trigger face at right angle to the bore and centered side-side, and with the trigger finger at right angles to the trigger face at release. In the real world, most end up with a trigger adjustment that feels comfortable and minimizes the torque applied to the bore axis from the trigger force vector. Of course the grip settings and the trigger settings interact and you may have to iterate to get to a point of (reasonable) comfort and a release that does not move the sights.

Gort · Post by **Gort** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:19 pm

An obsevation; Having the trigger central to the axis of the bore acually may not be important. I belive that the trigger face should be square to the hand/grip interface, i.e. the web of the hand. This prevents the trigger force from torqueing the grip (read bore) from the axis of sight. Picture a pistol with the grip/trigger assembaly, rotated laterally 90 degrees to the bore, where would you want thr trigger face, 90 to the bore or parallel to it? The trigger face should be square to the grip/hand interface, so as to have trigger pressure extending to the center of the web of the hand, thus causing no rotational torque.
Gort

darticus · Post by **darticus** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:35 pm

"As noted in this thread, the ideal case would be to have the trigger face at right angle to the bore and centered side-side, and with the trigger finger at right angles to the trigger face at release."

Sounds like the angle of the trigger is made so that all tries to line up with your ideal case set up. Just did't want to adjust the trigger and get all screwed up.Maybe if it feels good, that's good enough.Thanks Ron

darticus · Post by **darticus** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:44 pm

I can normally just understand what Fred says, Steve is a trip but What in the world in english are you saying. You are toooo professionally advanced for me (everyone is). I will read this many times but WOW! Thank you I will try to understand.Ron

Fred · Post by **Fred** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:54 pm

John,

Both FredM and Gort make very good points just above. Since you are apparently rather new to this, I wanted to emphasize a basic principle that you might keep in mind. On a gun, such as the Steyr LP10, which has the ability to alter the grip angles and also the ability to move the trigger blade in many directions, there is a logical order to follow in arriving at optimal set-up.

First, you make the necessary modifications to the grip so that it fits your hand properly. There is some information on this site about that, and Don Nygord has written about it (Nygord's Notes).

Second, you use the provided grip angle adjustment screws to adjust the various angles at which the grip attaches to the frame, in order to achieve a natural alignment of the sights when you lift the gun. Your manual tells you how to make those adjustments.

Last, you use the trigger blade adjustments to move the blade into its optimal position relative to where your finger naturally falls when holding the gun in the shooting position. Your manual deals with this, as well.

Contrary to what has been stated and/or implied earlier in this thread, you do not use your current finger position on the trigger to tell you what to do about your grip. Such a procedure would be warranted only if 1) your current finger position was causing you problems, and 2) there was no built-in way to alter either the trigger position or the grip angles. In other words, you may or may not need a different sized grip, but your finger postion on the trigger of an LP10 - no matter what that position is - will not tell you that.

HTH,
FredB

darticus · Post by **darticus** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:11 pm

My LP 10 ,right in pic, is using the same trigger as yours. Its grip looks 90 degrees to the bore, but the trigger is angled.The LP 1 is using whatever trigger the LP 1's use. The LP 1 trigger, left in pic, looks about straight or 90 degrees to the bore.The grip looks maybe at an angle. The manual I thought, says to adjust grip to get trigger to proper angle. So I thought the LP 1 didn't have the adjustments like the LP 10. A little confused. Ron

TargetTalk

Finger position and trigger blade.

Finger position and trigger blade.

Apples and Oranges ?

Re: Apples and Oranges ?

TRIGGER

Re: TRIGGER

Thanks Fred

Thanks Gort

Fred-Trigger lp 10