Training proceedure.

[John Harvey]

I’ve a question about a training procedure. I live in Bali, Indonesia and fortunate enough (given that I shoot 510 - 525) to attend training with the Indonesian National air pistol team.
On the weekend, the national coach handed out targets with the nine and ten ring cut out of them. We were instructed to shoot a series of 10 shots, and “allowed” to have a maximum of two of the ten shots not make it through the cut out hole. If we failed after 10 shots, we were to use another target and continue to try until successful. Later, I asked the coach the significance of the exercise (other than the obvious of trying to have all shots in the 9/10 ring area.) His only explanation (including to all those who were training) was to “try and keep all shots as either a 9 or 10 - hold the 9 ring"
Is this an exercise that is a known procedure? I’ve never seen it discussed or suggested in any posts. Just wondering if there is more than the “obvious” to the exercise - especially the cutting of the hole?
John Harvey

[David Levene]

Yes John, it's a fairly well established practice.

The idea is to stop you worrying about the score. If you take that out of the equation then shooting 10 consecutive shots of 9 or above is a lot easier.

[Steve Swartz]

A derivation has either a metal template with a hole in the middle (misses provide immediate feedback) and/or a metal center (hits provide immediate feedback).

You want "Go/No Go" training without respect for shot placement.

This drill is *only* effective- IMNSHO- if the shooter is 1) far enough along in understanding and INTERNALIZING the settle-accept-subconscious release process to appreciate the principle of training for observable BEHAVIOR and not observable OUTCOME; and 2) the shooter has this aspect (behavior vs. hole in paper) explained to him/her thoroughly ahead of time!!!!

The act of paying close attention to observable behaviors while shooting is absolutely critical to skill development. That's why you remove the silly, distracting, holes in the paper from the shooter's input stream.

The "clang" of the go/no go feedback can be used to reinforce the proper execution of the desired observable behavior, and can be used after (of course) the student gets used to the basic drill.

Of course, as the student progresses the "black hole" goes from 8 ring to 8.5, 9, 9.5 and then 10 ring (based on pellet OD of course!).

Steve

[John Harvey]

Thank you David and Steve for the explanation. I know that some of the athletes at the club would benefit from a “reason”. It must be hard for English non speaking nations, especially ones like Indonesia (classed as a developing Nation) to pick up on current or modern training methods – and then translate them so the “point” is not missed.
I think I have a good example of that. I’ve read enough to understand that each time one competes, time should be spent on NPA and ones correct feet position/stance. Here in Indonesia, at the beginning of training or competition, the team is instructed to take 15 – 20 minutes to find that position, and once found, do not move from it until the end of the competition.(or training period). We’re reminded that this means keeping the same feet position for nearly two hours – given a competition (for men) is 105 minutes and there’s preparation time prior. If you need to sit down, they drag their chair on wheels underneath them, and feet stayed glued to the floor. I myself find this impossible, and since I’m not one of the team the coach “allows” me to move off the mark and not abide strictly with his rule. I take chalk with me, and mark my feet position on the floor, and come back to it each time. The others find this quite amusing. Indonesians seem to be able to sit or stand in the same position for hours with no discomfort. (no-one has ever asked to borrow my chalk!!) This western foreigner can’t do that – and they have a friendly joke about it. I’m wondering of course whether the “interpretation” of finding your NPA and good stance – and then abiding strictly to it – has been taken too literally. I’ve since read that shooters of all standards take a “break” when it’s needed, maybe stretch or flex – and that surely is not done on the shooting line?
Of course it’s impossible for me to pass on information to them – given they know I’m a beginner and “what would I know?”. Telling them for example, that turning their cell phones off during practice would enhance their concentration, appears obvious – but I’m in no position to “advise”. I’m sure the feet/stance rule is a little to rigid (play on words not intended!) too. Looking at photos on our host’s site, it appears to me that no-one stays “put” for the entire event. It’s a great incentive for me to improve though. Whilst it’s likely to be a fair time yet, when I can start shooting in the 560’s – that would put me in front of their best athletes. Maybe then I could pass on information that would enhance their training and results. For my own knowledge, are chairs provided at championship events, and how far off the shooting line does one move during a competition?

John

[Guest]

with sufficient training the natural point of aim can be just taken up within 2 or 3 mins max.

personally i dedicated 2 weeks just to train this aspect. i would find my natural aim. break from it and repeat for an hour before i start doing my dry shooting. i find that now i can get the natural point of aim right immediately half the time with the other half needing a slight adjustment.

note though dont use anything on the bench to align yourself. only use your body, head, eyes,the target and most obvious and important of all your pistol.

[RobStubbs]

I think I have a good example of that. I’ve read enough to understand that each time one competes, time should be spent on NPA and ones correct feet position/stance. Here in Indonesia, at the beginning of training or competition, the team is instructed to take 15 – 20 minutes to find that position, and once found, do not move from it until the end of the competition.(or training period). We’re reminded that this means keeping the same feet position for nearly two hours – given a competition (for men) is 105 minutes and there’s preparation time prior. If you need to sit down, they drag their chair on wheels underneath them, and feet stayed glued to the floor. I myself find this impossible, and since I’m not one of the team the coach “allows” me to move off the mark and not abide strictly with his rule. I take chalk with me, and mark my feet position on the floor, and come back to it each time. The others find this quite amusing. Indonesians seem to be able to sit or stand in the same position for hours with no discomfort. (no-one has ever asked to borrow my chalk!!) This western foreigner can’t do that – and they have a friendly joke about it. I’m wondering of course whether the “interpretation” of finding your NPA and good stance – and then abiding strictly to it – has been taken too literally. I’ve since read that shooters of all standards take a “break” when it’s needed, maybe stretch or flex – and that surely is not done on the shooting line?
Of course it’s impossible for me to pass on information to them – given they know I’m a beginner and “what would I know?”. Telling them for example, that turning their cell phones off during practice would enhance their concentration, appears obvious – but I’m in no position to “advise”. I’m sure the feet/stance rule is a little to rigid (play on words not intended!) too. Looking at photos on our host’s site, it appears to me that no-one stays “put” for the entire event. It’s a great incentive for me to improve though. Whilst it’s likely to be a fair time yet, when I can start shooting in the 560’s – that would put me in front of their best athletes. Maybe then I could pass on information that would enhance their training and results. For my own knowledge, are chairs provided at championship events, and how far off the shooting line does one move during a competition?

John

John,
There is no way shooters should be asked to stand still for the whole competition. I don't even begin to understand the rationale for even thinking that's a good idea. I break position on average every 20 shots or so and most other shooters appear to take at least a couple of breaks during a 60 shot comp. You have 1 hour 45 for AP so use that time wisely. A lot of shooters walk off the range, get a bit of fresh air, go for 'natural break' or whatever. Then come back, refocus and continue where you left off. Another thing is that it's often helpful to walk away after a batch of poor shots. Sit down or walk away and purge you mind. When you come back you should have got rid of the poor shots from your mind ready to focus on good shot release once again.

As for taking up your stance it should take a couple of minutes, no more (once learned). Don't forget also that a stance that's great at the start probably won't be at the end. Muscles slowly tire and that will affect the NPA. That of itself indicates a break is good to re-aquire your position.

Chairs are supplied at every meeting and are required by ISSF rules. Take at look at some of the ISSF videos and you should be able to watch all competitors taking breaks (if they video for long enough).

Rob.

[Steve Swartz]

1) You should have a method for establishing NPA quickly and accurately. We've had several posts on this recently.

2) NPA will not be the same for you every day.*

3) NPA will change during the match (throw away the chalk).*

* Within reasonable limits. Taking some time to fiddle with the parameters of your stance, grip, and NPA is time well spent at least once per shooting season. Also note that you can "train" your self for a particular NPA . . . kind of begging the question of just how "Natural" it is, right?

However, trying to find a "magic" NPA that is the best for every day/circumstance and then bringing along surveyor's tools to lock into that perfect alignment is not only impractical- it won't give you teh results you need.

The human body is an adaptive organic system.

Steve Swartz

[John Harvey]

Rob, Steve, Guest - thank you very much. Thank goodness I brought this up. I really did think that I "chalk" my position and then "weld" myself back there each time I move. Training at home - and I've been folowing the same proceedure. (yes the chalk's already gone!!) Makes sense now I stop and think about it - especially as the session goes on. I've got a lot to work with. Much appreciated.
John

[Guest]

well maybe train isnt the right word. what i did was try to ingrain myself with the procedure of aquiring it so it becomes more instinctive. Even if NPA changes its not drastic so the general position would not change. normally when i adjust i only move my left foot(righty) by about 2 to 3cm at most.

thanks for the point about change of NPA as shooting goes on. i was wondering why i have to click 3 clicks right after around 40 shots everytime only to have to click back on a new session. i shoot very slowly so i dont break from my position and would finish all my shots before sitting down or moving.

[darticus]

Would it be the same to just make the 10 and 9 ring white on a computer program and than print for practice?See pic!

[Fred Mannis]

What would that accomplish? You would still see the holes/score.
Besides, the diameter of the 9 ring would have to be increased 9 mm (4.5*2), since shots tangent to the 9 ring count as 9's

[Ed Hall]

Just to throw a personal experience into the mix, referencing the stationary shooters:

The best Free Pistol match I ever shot was one where I maintained the exact same position and the exact same grip for the entire session. Not only did I stand in the exact same place (as though my shoes were glued to the floor) for the entire match, I held the pistol continuously (as though it was glued to my hand) and did all the rest of the activity with my left hand. I ran the target transport and changed the targets all left handed. I took no sitting break. (I often stand throughout entire competitions, though.) At shot 51, I took a standing break, only because I started realizing things were going well and decided to relax for a few minutes.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

[darticus]

What would that accomplish? You would still see the holes/score.
Besides, the diameter of the 9 ring would have to be increased 9 mm (4.5*2), since shots tangent to the 9 ring count as 9's

Sorry Fred, I didn't understand you were not to see the hit holes.I thought it was just to put everything in the 9 or 10 ring. If you didn't see the hit, because it was cut out, you know you hit anyway, but not exactly where you hit.Guess I got it wrong.

[Fred Mannis]

... you know you hit anyway, but not exactly where you hit.

Exactly. You want to reward your subconscious for keeping all the shots inside the xx ring, not for the score. Eliminates the frustration (bad feedback) of keeping all shots inside the xx ring, but no 10's!

[RobStubbs]

Just to throw a personal experience into the mix, referencing the stationary shooters:

The best Free Pistol match I ever shot was one where I maintained the exact same position and the exact same grip for the entire session.

And just to contrast that - my best free pistol match was shooting 10 shots per card, outdoors in the coldest part of our winter and going to change cards every set. I find the enforced break suits my style of shooting (or maybe my brain can only focus properly for ten shots at a time ;) ).

Rob.

[Guest]

to me the perfect training target would be a blank card that you could shoot at and not tell where you shots land at all. for me after around 10 shots i tend to notice a cluster of holes on the card. somehow it messes me up and my grouping gets larger as i continue 20 30 40 50 etc shots.

[Richard H]

to me the perfect training target would be a blank card that you could shoot at and not tell where you shots land at all. for me after around 10 shots i tend to notice a cluster of holes on the card. somehow it messes me up and my grouping gets larger as i continue 20 30 40 50 etc shots.

Then put up an new one after 10 shoots.

[darticus]

This sounds strange and everytime someone says it I don't get it. If I shoot at a blank card that I can't see where the shots hit where am I aiming?Am I trying to hit the center of the card? Do I just shoot mechanically at it, and do it the same each time, and it hits the same place if I do it the same way? Why not dry fire?Must be shooting somewhere.

[Fred Mannis]

... do it the same each time, and it hits the same place if I do it the same way?

Yes

Why not dry fire?

Dry fire is great for checking the purity of your trigger release (to quote Ed Hall). Firing at a blank card provides feedback on whether you are doing it the same way each time.

[F. Paul in Denver]

Darticus,

The whole idea of shooting at the blank card is to eliminate the distractive nature of the bull and allow you to work exclusively on sight alignment and trigger control.

You will defeat the whole purpose of the drill by trying to find something to aim at on the blank card. Just raise the gun, settle the sights and operate the trigger WITHOUT disturbing the sight alignment.

Dont worry about groups - they will take care of themselves. Stop thinking so hard about it and just learn to trust and enjoy the drill. The results will be well worth the effort.

F. Paul in Denver