I happened on a fully informal league that shoots indoor 15m air pistol silhouette every Saturday at my range.
There is nine hardcore shooters looking for a tenth and they've invited me. They've been shooting this for a long time, same director, same time, same equipment, the Izhmash -46M with a custom scope mount and some really big scopes 5-30X or thereabouts. Same two-handed stance - which I've never seen or tried before.
Is this not as uncommon as I may think it is and are such high power scopes really necessary?
I have a great Izzy but I am a little reluctant to spend big on a high end scope for a ... toy league?
They're also using custom made angled scope mounts which I've never encountered before. Why angled?
Hope somebody here can shed light on this.
Please explain this air pistol silhouette to me.
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Re: Please explain this air pistol silhouette to me.
A few:
http://www.pbrsc.org/pistol-silhouette.html
http://www.airguns.net/comp_silhouette.php
I've shot full sized silhouettes with .44mag and .357 Max pistols. You happened on a scaled down versions to match air pistol size and range. The angled scope mounts were called "ladder mounts". The move the scope way above the bore line and forward of a normal mount. This allows the shooter to wrap his off hand over the top in a "taco hold" and keep both elbows against his rib cage. It almost looks like shooting from the hip as the bore line is down around your chest. No limit was put on scope power by the organizers so people use huge magnification.
I ran into a similar situation with 25 yard NRA indoor sporter rifle, .22LR with a rifle weight limit but no scope magnification limit. I shot with my AR-22 and iron sights and beat a lot of the scope boys. One guy told me he could only see the X and ten rings. I'm not sure how he ever found them with such a limited field of view. Funny thing, they also had a "no artificial support" rule, but all of the regulars were wearing heavy vests with weighted pockets. Nothing artificial about that, eh?
One possibility would be to try it out with your iron sights and one hand hold. If you can be competitive like that, more power to you.
http://www.pbrsc.org/pistol-silhouette.html
http://www.airguns.net/comp_silhouette.php
I've shot full sized silhouettes with .44mag and .357 Max pistols. You happened on a scaled down versions to match air pistol size and range. The angled scope mounts were called "ladder mounts". The move the scope way above the bore line and forward of a normal mount. This allows the shooter to wrap his off hand over the top in a "taco hold" and keep both elbows against his rib cage. It almost looks like shooting from the hip as the bore line is down around your chest. No limit was put on scope power by the organizers so people use huge magnification.
I ran into a similar situation with 25 yard NRA indoor sporter rifle, .22LR with a rifle weight limit but no scope magnification limit. I shot with my AR-22 and iron sights and beat a lot of the scope boys. One guy told me he could only see the X and ten rings. I'm not sure how he ever found them with such a limited field of view. Funny thing, they also had a "no artificial support" rule, but all of the regulars were wearing heavy vests with weighted pockets. Nothing artificial about that, eh?
One possibility would be to try it out with your iron sights and one hand hold. If you can be competitive like that, more power to you.
Norm
in beautiful, gun friendly New Jersey
in beautiful, gun friendly New Jersey
Re: Please explain this air pistol silhouette to me.
The links nglitz gave you have the correct distances, but what you've encountered is folks who made up their own rules, probably to accommodate their surroundings, because they got bored, or because they found the real distances too easy with scopes that are allowed to be braced against their bodies. Nothing wrong with that as long as everyone shoots the same, but they should be made aware of the real rules and specs. The bit about bracing their elbows against their ribs is definitely against the standing rules, only allowable with freestyle positions. They are really doing themselves a disservice by not having varied distances to compensate for, and allowing bracing. They have also pretty much eliminated anyone other than scope-users from participating with 15 meter targets. And scope-users, at least in this neck of the woods, are by far the minority, in fact we didn't have a single scope user at the regional tournament we just had, just red dots and open iron sights.
Your IZH is plenty competitive in all three divisions, but I wouldn't worry about adding a scope, just ask them to put one set of animals at normal distances (10y, 12.5y, 15y, 18y) and enjoy the fun and simplicity of open iron sights. After experiencing the PITA, extra expense, additional weight and odd Taco Hold most use with a scope, you may convert a bunch of them to open sights when they see how much more fun you are having. Unless you can regularly hold the nine ring in 10 meter, you will find AP silhouette more difficult. You don't have that great big black ring to hit, just a tiny chicken, and near-misses don't count at all, you either put it down or not, and once you are out to 18 yards, the ram is only slightly bigger proportionately, but any tremble you have in your hold is magnified. There is also great satisfaction and visceral pleasure when you physically knock an animal down instead of punching a hole in a target, and the WHACK you hear against the metal animal, especially the chicken at only 10 yards, and especially if you use wadcutters, will make your day, something that cannot be satisfying at 15 meters where you only hear a plink. Also, 10 meter can get boring as hell with the repetition, silhouette, never. It is a great addition to your shooting skills.
There are only two organizations with governing rules for air pistol silhouette worth mentioning, the NRA and the IHMSA. The rules pertaining are below. I am the pistol match director at our club and if your friends came to our matches with their elbows against their ribs or supported in any way, they would be disqualified. It is more difficult to use the Taco Hold correctly, unsupported, and do well, and you only need normal distances to do it. Although we have a few shooters who have red dots mounted on IZH 46 and 46M's and Crossman 1701's, I and the majority prefer to shoot air pistol silhouette with open iron sights for the challenge, and it "just feels right". Below is a picture of how you should shoot air pistol silhouette with a red dot or scope using the Taco Hold without touching the body with elbows. The top picture gives you an idea of how small the chicken is compared to a black 10 meter ring, both at proper distances, and what the racks of animals should look like at their proper distances. Please ignore the fact that the 10 meter targets are not at proper height, I was teaching some kids that day.
Page 12, Section 5.8. https://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf ... p-book.pdf
Page 9, Section 5, B3. http://www.ihmsa.org/2009%20rulebook%20final.pdf
Happy to answer any other questions if I can.
Best Regards,
Richard
Your IZH is plenty competitive in all three divisions, but I wouldn't worry about adding a scope, just ask them to put one set of animals at normal distances (10y, 12.5y, 15y, 18y) and enjoy the fun and simplicity of open iron sights. After experiencing the PITA, extra expense, additional weight and odd Taco Hold most use with a scope, you may convert a bunch of them to open sights when they see how much more fun you are having. Unless you can regularly hold the nine ring in 10 meter, you will find AP silhouette more difficult. You don't have that great big black ring to hit, just a tiny chicken, and near-misses don't count at all, you either put it down or not, and once you are out to 18 yards, the ram is only slightly bigger proportionately, but any tremble you have in your hold is magnified. There is also great satisfaction and visceral pleasure when you physically knock an animal down instead of punching a hole in a target, and the WHACK you hear against the metal animal, especially the chicken at only 10 yards, and especially if you use wadcutters, will make your day, something that cannot be satisfying at 15 meters where you only hear a plink. Also, 10 meter can get boring as hell with the repetition, silhouette, never. It is a great addition to your shooting skills.
There are only two organizations with governing rules for air pistol silhouette worth mentioning, the NRA and the IHMSA. The rules pertaining are below. I am the pistol match director at our club and if your friends came to our matches with their elbows against their ribs or supported in any way, they would be disqualified. It is more difficult to use the Taco Hold correctly, unsupported, and do well, and you only need normal distances to do it. Although we have a few shooters who have red dots mounted on IZH 46 and 46M's and Crossman 1701's, I and the majority prefer to shoot air pistol silhouette with open iron sights for the challenge, and it "just feels right". Below is a picture of how you should shoot air pistol silhouette with a red dot or scope using the Taco Hold without touching the body with elbows. The top picture gives you an idea of how small the chicken is compared to a black 10 meter ring, both at proper distances, and what the racks of animals should look like at their proper distances. Please ignore the fact that the 10 meter targets are not at proper height, I was teaching some kids that day.
Page 12, Section 5.8. https://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf ... p-book.pdf
Page 9, Section 5, B3. http://www.ihmsa.org/2009%20rulebook%20final.pdf
Happy to answer any other questions if I can.
Best Regards,
Richard
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Re: Please explain this air pistol silhouette to me.
Thank you both, thank you indeed.
Whoa! I had no idea!
I'll study your responses and go from there. It appears that the format leaves a lot of areas to improvise in but as you said the iron sights of the Izzy is something I know well and am comfortable with.
There must've been some hidden reason why I kept Andrew busy printing all those grips for my Izzy, now I know.
Whoa! I had no idea!
I'll study your responses and go from there. It appears that the format leaves a lot of areas to improvise in but as you said the iron sights of the Izzy is something I know well and am comfortable with.
There must've been some hidden reason why I kept Andrew busy printing all those grips for my Izzy, now I know.
Re: Please explain this air pistol silhouette to me.
The 2 guys in that picture look familiar....
Oh yes, they were on the 2018 Louisiana 4-H Air Pistol Team that won the National Championship last week in Grand Island, Nebraska. The one in the front placed 2nd in silhouettes and the one in the back placed 1st in silhouettes shooting 35 and 36 out of 40 animals. Both used the Izzy with a Vortex red dot scope.
The team took 1st in all 3 events (rapid fire, slow fire, and silhouettes). The one in the front placed 1st overall and the one in back placed 2nd overall. Very proud of these boys and the rest of the Louisiana team.
(NOTE: the one in the back is my som).
Oh yes, they were on the 2018 Louisiana 4-H Air Pistol Team that won the National Championship last week in Grand Island, Nebraska. The one in the front placed 2nd in silhouettes and the one in the back placed 1st in silhouettes shooting 35 and 36 out of 40 animals. Both used the Izzy with a Vortex red dot scope.
The team took 1st in all 3 events (rapid fire, slow fire, and silhouettes). The one in the front placed 1st overall and the one in back placed 2nd overall. Very proud of these boys and the rest of the Louisiana team.
(NOTE: the one in the back is my som).
Re: Please explain this air pistol silhouette to me.
Congratulations, and excellent shooting! I can tell you from personal experience with these two that they are great examples of what a good upbringing and skill can produce. National Championships and rankings in anything are difficult to achieve, and I hope they both get the laurels and recognition they deserve, because I have seen the desire, determination, time and practice they have both invested in this sport (Hey Scott, how about some free guns?). Good going mom and dad! It's kids like these that are going to keep our sport alive long after we are gone.
So Amati, this example should give you an idea of how popular the discipline is, since it's even included in 4-H Clubs. And please let the guys at your club know that these kids scored almost perfect scores with red dots, not scopes, using the Taco hold without any arm support
BTW, I saw your ad selling your trusty IZH with all the grips. What are you going to shoot now? I use a Walther LP400 for 10 meter and silhouette, as do 3 other guys at our club. So if you go iron sights, any decent pistol will work. Since you guys already have a club that regularly meets for silhouette, why not double your fun and ask them to start setting up 10 meter targets as well? You're already there, it wouldn't take any extra equipment other than targets, and the two disciplines complement each other very well, both enhancing your overall shooting skills. One day you may be shooting lights out in silhouette, but stink at 10 meter, or vice versa, or you might crush both. Who knows? That's part of the fun, challenging yourself. Just be sure that if you use the same pistol for 10 meter and silhouette, you adjust your POA for 10 meter straight at the center of the bullseye, cutting the black in half, so you don't have weird holdover or under in silhouette. The two gentlemen in the picture use their IZH's for silhouette, but for 10 meter, the one on the left uses a Walther LP400, the one on the right, a Steyr LP10.
jdomangue: see you guys Saturday for our monthly match.
So Amati, this example should give you an idea of how popular the discipline is, since it's even included in 4-H Clubs. And please let the guys at your club know that these kids scored almost perfect scores with red dots, not scopes, using the Taco hold without any arm support
BTW, I saw your ad selling your trusty IZH with all the grips. What are you going to shoot now? I use a Walther LP400 for 10 meter and silhouette, as do 3 other guys at our club. So if you go iron sights, any decent pistol will work. Since you guys already have a club that regularly meets for silhouette, why not double your fun and ask them to start setting up 10 meter targets as well? You're already there, it wouldn't take any extra equipment other than targets, and the two disciplines complement each other very well, both enhancing your overall shooting skills. One day you may be shooting lights out in silhouette, but stink at 10 meter, or vice versa, or you might crush both. Who knows? That's part of the fun, challenging yourself. Just be sure that if you use the same pistol for 10 meter and silhouette, you adjust your POA for 10 meter straight at the center of the bullseye, cutting the black in half, so you don't have weird holdover or under in silhouette. The two gentlemen in the picture use their IZH's for silhouette, but for 10 meter, the one on the left uses a Walther LP400, the one on the right, a Steyr LP10.
jdomangue: see you guys Saturday for our monthly match.