On a positive note, I think I have discovered a way to see the lights, while shooting with a red dot scope.
You keep both eyes open.
The top Army shooters say they are doing this now, and I suspect, if and when we go to electronic targets, those who are able to do it, will have a significant advantage.
Electronic Target at Perry
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
I appreciate all the comments and observations about how all these issues and concerns will be overcome or simply do not apply. I guess I've got a lot to learn. Just show up and shoot and keep both eyes open. Thanks!
On the other hand if the guy with the most National Conventional Pistol Championshis wins has some concerns and issues, I don't feel so alone.
Again, turning targets are intrinsic to the match, we shoot 90 shot per agg, not 60 per match, some the bullets are a lot larger and the recoil time is somewhat different and oh by the way, there are a LOT more conventional pistol matches than international. Wonder why that is? Maybe because the grassroots match directors and shooters want to shoot "Bullseye" not international.
At the present, any shooter can come to my local match and hear the same commands, have the same targets, get the same timing as he will see at Camp Perry. Thanks for saying its ok to just change the rules we have today and take that away from him.
Cecil
On the other hand if the guy with the most National Conventional Pistol Championshis wins has some concerns and issues, I don't feel so alone.
Again, turning targets are intrinsic to the match, we shoot 90 shot per agg, not 60 per match, some the bullets are a lot larger and the recoil time is somewhat different and oh by the way, there are a LOT more conventional pistol matches than international. Wonder why that is? Maybe because the grassroots match directors and shooters want to shoot "Bullseye" not international.
At the present, any shooter can come to my local match and hear the same commands, have the same targets, get the same timing as he will see at Camp Perry. Thanks for saying its ok to just change the rules we have today and take that away from him.
Cecil
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
I agree with you. And as you know, I know what has happened to international. There are very few USA sanctioned shooting matches left.CR10X wrote:I appreciate all the comments and observations about how all these issues and concerns will be overcome or simply do not apply. I guess I've got a lot to learn. Just show up and shoot and keep both eyes open. Thanks!
On the other hand if the guy with the most National Conventional Pistol Championshis wins has some concerns and issues, I don't feel so alone.
Again, turning targets are intrinsic to the match, we shoot 90 shot per agg, not 60 per match, some the bullets are a lot larger and the recoil time is somewhat different and oh by the way, there are a LOT more conventional pistol matches than international. Wonder why that is? Maybe because the grassroots match directors and shooters want to shoot "Bullseye" not international.
At the present, any shooter can come to my local match and hear the same commands, have the same targets, get the same timing as he will see at Camp Perry. Thanks for saying its ok to just change the rules we have today and take that away from him.
Cecil
Those of us who go to Phoenix shoot them for fun, but my membership is up this year in USA shooting, and I don't think I will be renewing.
It costs me 500 bucks entry fees and lodging, and travel to go shoot Winter Air which is a three hour drive for me. All that money for 120 shots over three days.
USA shooting has been making poorly thought out financial, technology, and rules decisions for years now.
The mere fact, that I have mentioned a way to see the lights, does not mean that I believe the NRA can go to electronic targets, without damaging the sport of bullseye beyond repair.
For several years, I have wondered whether Camp Perry was an event put on for the competitive shooters, or whether it was put on for the benefit of the NRA employees and the volunteers.
If they steamroll this new target system through, it will send a very clear message that it isn't about what works for the shooters, it is only about what is convenient for them.
I wonder how long the grand ole NRA party at Perry can continue if the shooters stay home?
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Trooperjake
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:22 pm
- Location: Cookeville, TN
Isabel
I never meant that shooters would shoot at targets mounted on a trailer.
I meant the trailer would be a storage unit only for the 150 targets.
Including any needed benches. A tractor trailer can carry a great amount of goods. Independent Drivers can be hired when needed to haul the trailers.
I think only 25 would be need to travel, the NRA could not afford to have the targets get in an accident and not have them when needed.
I can think of many ranges that could run a match with eTargets.
One is Ben Avery, AZ, there are numerous military ranges, Oak Ridge Sportsman's Club in TN, almost any 1,000 yard range, etc, etc.
NCAA rifle and collegiate pistol have many eTargets, there are many local clubs who have invested in the targets. Most being smallbore and air.
Tennessee Tech invested $40,000 in the targets, then dropped the sport the next semester.
No matter what, competitive shooting is on the decline, it is very hard to get juniors in the numbers of the past, get beyond early training. With the general laziness of the public, all areas of competition is hurting, except for the big dollar sports like baseball, football, soccer, basketball and golf.
I never meant that shooters would shoot at targets mounted on a trailer.
I meant the trailer would be a storage unit only for the 150 targets.
Including any needed benches. A tractor trailer can carry a great amount of goods. Independent Drivers can be hired when needed to haul the trailers.
I think only 25 would be need to travel, the NRA could not afford to have the targets get in an accident and not have them when needed.
I can think of many ranges that could run a match with eTargets.
One is Ben Avery, AZ, there are numerous military ranges, Oak Ridge Sportsman's Club in TN, almost any 1,000 yard range, etc, etc.
NCAA rifle and collegiate pistol have many eTargets, there are many local clubs who have invested in the targets. Most being smallbore and air.
Tennessee Tech invested $40,000 in the targets, then dropped the sport the next semester.
No matter what, competitive shooting is on the decline, it is very hard to get juniors in the numbers of the past, get beyond early training. With the general laziness of the public, all areas of competition is hurting, except for the big dollar sports like baseball, football, soccer, basketball and golf.
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
You are overlooking the most important factor here Trooper Jake.
None of this moving around the country is going to happen for free, and let's just say, it will take five thousand dollars to bring targets from Camp Perry to Ben Avery and back. Based on my knowledge of the trucking industry, that, I believe, is an extremely conservative estimate. It could easily be double that.
Here's the math. diesel is 4.50 a gallon. Tractor trailer makes 10 miles per gallon. Round trip from Camp Perry is 4000 miles. So 400 gallons of diesel is 1800 dollars. Of course there are other expenses of running a truck, and the driver has to make a profit, and pay his lodging while he waits to take the truck back, so I think 5k is quite a reasonable estimate.
Ok. Phoenix Rod and Gun gets about 60 shooters for their bullseye match, in the winter, so let's assume for the sake of argument, that all those guys are willing to show up at Ben Avery, thirty miles away, to shoot Bullseye. Take that five thousand dollars in extra match costs, and divide it among 60 shooters.
Plus of course, the expenses of a dude trained on the electronic target system to set up, run the system, and take down the targets. So let's say, 1500 for that over a three day match.
Sound reasonable?
So, for the Phoenix Rod and gun club, which I believe charges about 60 bucks to shoot their match, the costs for the match have increased 6500 dollars, divided by 60 shooters which means than they will have to charge an extra hundred dollars per shooter for the match to cover their expenses.
That will be a match fee of 170 dollars a person.
The cost of bringing out the targets are a fixed expense, meaning if almost triple match fees discourage half their regular shooters from showing up, they now have to be able to charge 250 dollars for each of the remaining shooters just to break even.
This is called a death spiral.
This is how a real business operates. Not a college or university which is spending other people's money.
And these are the kinds of money issues that match directors face every day.
Maybe you are independently wealthy but most shooters are not.
None of this moving around the country is going to happen for free, and let's just say, it will take five thousand dollars to bring targets from Camp Perry to Ben Avery and back. Based on my knowledge of the trucking industry, that, I believe, is an extremely conservative estimate. It could easily be double that.
Here's the math. diesel is 4.50 a gallon. Tractor trailer makes 10 miles per gallon. Round trip from Camp Perry is 4000 miles. So 400 gallons of diesel is 1800 dollars. Of course there are other expenses of running a truck, and the driver has to make a profit, and pay his lodging while he waits to take the truck back, so I think 5k is quite a reasonable estimate.
Ok. Phoenix Rod and Gun gets about 60 shooters for their bullseye match, in the winter, so let's assume for the sake of argument, that all those guys are willing to show up at Ben Avery, thirty miles away, to shoot Bullseye. Take that five thousand dollars in extra match costs, and divide it among 60 shooters.
Plus of course, the expenses of a dude trained on the electronic target system to set up, run the system, and take down the targets. So let's say, 1500 for that over a three day match.
Sound reasonable?
So, for the Phoenix Rod and gun club, which I believe charges about 60 bucks to shoot their match, the costs for the match have increased 6500 dollars, divided by 60 shooters which means than they will have to charge an extra hundred dollars per shooter for the match to cover their expenses.
That will be a match fee of 170 dollars a person.
The cost of bringing out the targets are a fixed expense, meaning if almost triple match fees discourage half their regular shooters from showing up, they now have to be able to charge 250 dollars for each of the remaining shooters just to break even.
This is called a death spiral.
This is how a real business operates. Not a college or university which is spending other people's money.
And these are the kinds of money issues that match directors face every day.
Maybe you are independently wealthy but most shooters are not.
Last edited by Isabel1130 on Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not so, in Minnesota Clay Targets are booming (pun intended). This is the way to revive ANY shooting sport get the kids involved. Conventional pistol is about marksmanship. eTargets DON NOT negate that. Yes it changes the way matches are run but so did turning targets. Ask yourself what would kids be attracted to. A match using turning targets or eTargets.Trooperjake wrote:Isabel
.....No matter what, competitive shooting is on the decline, it is very hard to get juniors in the numbers of the past, get beyond early training. With the general laziness of the public, all areas of competition is hurting, except for the big dollar sports like baseball, football, soccer, basketball and golf.
In 2002 there were 750 at Perry this year 656. We need to change this trend. Not to be crass but the decline is due to the fact more of us died off than took up the sport.
http://www.mnclaytarget.com/high-school ... n-clubs-2/
Clipped from link above.
.....Still, with 6,100 students competing, many clubs are maxed out. Waiting lists are growing.
This year, teams turned away 1,800 kids because of limited shooting range time, said Jim Sable, the league’s founder and executive director. ....
Dave
Certified Safety Instructor: Rifle & Pistol
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ Ben Franklin
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ Ben Franklin
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Trooperjake
- Posts: 794
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- Location: Cookeville, TN
Dave
When I said competitive sports are declining, I meant bullseye, international pistol and smallbore.
Air rifle and BB, on the lower level, using medium quality rifles are doing well in my area. Getting them to true competition is the problem. Our last 3 P match had 6 shooters with one junior.
Air pistol and 22 pistol is practically non-existent.
I know there are many good programs, like the NJ group, Long Island, etc.
But not nationwide.
Where was the junior pistol camp at Perry this year? Or last year.
Where is any junior pistol camp, clinics or seminars? I haven't heard of any.
Is Larry the only one supporting junior pistol?
Junior Clay target and trap are doing very well here.
Cowboy SASS is doing well and action pistol is doing extremely well.
High power is very healthy. But we lack good facilities. They are few and far apart.
And I do think juniors would like eTargets over turning targets, if given the choice. It's what they are used to with Xbox and similar systems.
New blood starts on the grass roots level, it's up to us to start programs introducing juniors to the sport of bullseye pistol, or the sport faces a slow and sure death. With or without eTargets. What we need is more programs like the one in Ohio.
When I said competitive sports are declining, I meant bullseye, international pistol and smallbore.
Air rifle and BB, on the lower level, using medium quality rifles are doing well in my area. Getting them to true competition is the problem. Our last 3 P match had 6 shooters with one junior.
Air pistol and 22 pistol is practically non-existent.
I know there are many good programs, like the NJ group, Long Island, etc.
But not nationwide.
Where was the junior pistol camp at Perry this year? Or last year.
Where is any junior pistol camp, clinics or seminars? I haven't heard of any.
Is Larry the only one supporting junior pistol?
Junior Clay target and trap are doing very well here.
Cowboy SASS is doing well and action pistol is doing extremely well.
High power is very healthy. But we lack good facilities. They are few and far apart.
And I do think juniors would like eTargets over turning targets, if given the choice. It's what they are used to with Xbox and similar systems.
New blood starts on the grass roots level, it's up to us to start programs introducing juniors to the sport of bullseye pistol, or the sport faces a slow and sure death. With or without eTargets. What we need is more programs like the one in Ohio.
My club just last year installed electronic targets for the Junior club and I know they are not the only one in the US. International shooting is much smaller than BE and for this reason I think the conversion rate would be slower. Since BE is larger I would suspect some ranges would add electronic targets faster than we saw for international.Isabel1130 wrote: This did not happen in the US after USA shooting went to electronic targets. Why would bullseye be different? Both occupy a very small market share in the overall target shooting market.
Both markets are still small and I would only expect a small number of clubs to convert in the next 10 years. But the only reason to convert would be if there were enough people who want to have a similar set up as Perry. I do not think you need to install e-target locally for training purposes which is why most clubs will not install them.
International pistol is small because it is hard there are no scholarships like rifle and few matches. I run the only Free/Air Pistol match in OR for the sectional. 6-10 people show up.
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
Orpanaut wrote:Has the old target system been scrapped already, or could it be pulled out of storage next July if the new electronic targets aren't ready to go by then?
To my knowledge it has not been scrapped.
I have never thought 2015 was even close to a realistic goal to have an electronic target system up and running at Perry. If the purchase contract was signed this year, and it included the modifications that the NRA has insisted were necessary (frame hardening) etc. I think we could realistically expect to see the system on the ground in 2017, or possibly 18.
Again, to my knowledge, the NRA has not made a decision yet, which system to buy. That decision alone, if properly researched, should take at least a year.
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Isabel1130
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- Location: Wyoming
"International pistol is small because it is hard there are no scholarships like rifle and few matches. I run the only Free/Air Pistol match in OR for the sectional. 6-10 people show up."
There are a few scholarships but a lot of the collegiate pistol programs went away in the 90's.
I think you will find, before International shooting split off from the NRA there used to be quite a few more matches, and greater participation. Many international matches were run in conjunction with Conventional Pistol matches.
I am told there used to be international matches at Perry also.
There is no doubt the electronic targets, and the expense of them, is only part of the problem, but it is a death by a thousand cuts kind of thing.
Part of the driver is the restrictions on handgun ownership by under 21s, and the general handgun phobia whipped up during the Clinton administration.
It affected pistol shooting at the college level, and also the junior programs.
There are a few scholarships but a lot of the collegiate pistol programs went away in the 90's.
I think you will find, before International shooting split off from the NRA there used to be quite a few more matches, and greater participation. Many international matches were run in conjunction with Conventional Pistol matches.
I am told there used to be international matches at Perry also.
There is no doubt the electronic targets, and the expense of them, is only part of the problem, but it is a death by a thousand cuts kind of thing.
Part of the driver is the restrictions on handgun ownership by under 21s, and the general handgun phobia whipped up during the Clinton administration.
It affected pistol shooting at the college level, and also the junior programs.
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ghillieman
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Mineola, TX
Does anyone have a cost per target of the new etargets the NRA is proposing? With the computers and everthing else that is required to run this system.
I'm having a hard time understanding how this will cost more than building a turning target system.
If you get on Google maps satellite image there is so much unused land at Camp Perry. Why dont they build a permanant turning target system. I found a spot just off the rifle range close to the shops where there is a parcel of land you could fit a permenant pistol range 200 yards long.
I'm having a hard time understanding how this will cost more than building a turning target system.
If you get on Google maps satellite image there is so much unused land at Camp Perry. Why dont they build a permanant turning target system. I found a spot just off the rifle range close to the shops where there is a parcel of land you could fit a permenant pistol range 200 yards long.
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ghillieman
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Mineola, TX