World Cup Finals

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:56 pm

Can anyone explain to me what is the point of having a World Cup Final event with sometimes only have 9 competitors and possibly only 8 in some circumstances...while you need to qualify for the final?
Essentially anyone who show up will automatically qualify to the final of an event (8 out of 10, 8 out of 9, or 8 out of 8)..so is the only point of having a qualifying round is for world record purposes?
RFP is the only event that makes sense in qualifying (6 out of a minimum 8).

The entire qualifying process idea seems a bit odd, perhaps they should increase the quota to have at least 13 competitors per event (World Champion, Olympic Champion, World Cup Finals Champion, and the remaining top 10 competitors).

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:20 pm

Read:

http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/cham ... final.ashx

The ISSF World Cup Finals
ISSF World Cup Finals are organized every year, as a conclusion of the ISSF World Cup Series.
Usually, two separate ISSF World Cup Finals for Rifle&Pistol events and Shotgun events are organized.

At the end of the ISSF World Cup Series, the best eight athletes in each event with the highest qualification values will qualify for the ISSF World Cup Final. Within one event, only a maximum of two athletes per nation will be permitted to compete in the ISSF World Cup Final.

Next to the best eight athletes, wild cards are granted to the Title Defenders, and, in the years of the Olympic Games and of the World Championships, to the three medallists in each event.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:38 pm

For some reason they don't have silver and bronze medalists anymore, nor the off cycle champion (in this case, World Champion).

If you look at the WCF qualification in issf's website, they only have two places for exemption, that is, Olympic and defending World Cup Final champion.

If those two do not show up, we are talking about 8 persons for an event, rendering qualifying pointless since points cannot carry over anymore into the final round.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:42 pm

If only eight show up, then the 60 shots of the qualifying round will serve to determine the shooting positions of the athletes in the final.

If you look at the ISSF channel on youtube you will only find finals, not the qualifying round... so it doesn't matter if 8 or 800 show up for that... you will only see the top eight in the final.

This particular event is of the "all stars" type. Ence the name "ISSF World Cup Finals"

Hope this helps

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:53 am

conradin wrote: If those two do not show up, we are talking about 8 persons for an event, rendering qualifying pointless since points cannot carry over anymore into the final round.

I agree with what you're saying with just 8 showing (assuming all invited athletes attend - they don't always), it merely serves as a 60-shot warm up. Where you stand in the finals is frankly irrelevant.

Maybe it's something the ISSF could or should change going forwards ?

Rob.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:05 pm

RobStubbs wrote: Where you stand in the finals is frankly irrelevant.

Agree

RobStubbs wrote: Maybe it's something the ISSF could or should change going forwards ?

I would like to think so, as I believe this is something that was designed when the qualiyfing scores where carried to the final. The current rules do render the qualifying part irrelevant for this event.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Is there some suggestion that the competitors would prefer to travel the thousands of miles just to shoot a final, or are onlookers just being picky for the sake of it.

What is the harm in them shooting the qualifying stage as well. At least it gives them another chance to set a record.

FredB · Post by **FredB** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:29 pm

All finals are shot after the competitors have shot a qualifying round. Usually the qualifying round takes significant time to complete and is shot the same day as the finals. If competitors were to shoot a finals without having shot a prior qualifying round, that finals would not be the same as other finals, in terms of the physical and mental stresses placed on the shooters. It wouldn't even be correctly called a "finals", since it would be the whole thing.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:00 pm

David Levene wrote:Is there some suggestion that the competitors would prefer to travel the thousands of miles just to shoot a final, or are onlookers just being picky for the sake of it.

What is the harm in them shooting the qualifying stage as well. At least it gives them another chance to set a record.

There is no harm in shooting a qualifying round and then a final in my opinion, because as FredB said, it's not the same thing physically and mentally to just shoot a final.

The only thing I was referring was the number of participants in the qualifying round.

I get doing a ISSF World Cup Finals, as an end of season special match, but I don't agree with the number of athletes... A qualifying with around 30 people would be much more interesting, both to watch and to compete in... in my opinion.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:05 pm

rmca wrote:The only thing I was referring was the number of participants in the qualifying round.

My apologies if it seemed my comments were directed at you, they weren't.

I can see the logic behind having such a low number of competitors. The best of the best.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:43 pm

No need to apologise David. I didn't feel personally hit (pun intended) :)

jipe · Post by **jipe** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:51 pm

Yes, but with the stupid new rule where the qualification score aren't taken over for the final score and with only 8 or less participants to the qualifications, the qualifications become a kind of warm-up, nothing more.

So ISSF should either take the qualification score into account for the total score or invite more athletes, i.e. the three medalists of each WC (but even so there were not a lot of participants to the past WC finals qualifications).

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:26 am

RobStubbs wrote: Where you stand in the finals is frankly irrelevant.

Yes, that's true, but...

I would like them to change it so the top qualifiers got the middle firing points rather than the left hand end ones. You know, like they do in athletics and swimming. So the top qualifiers would then be the "centre of attention". And, yes before someone points out the obvious, I know it's start from zero now and everyone has the same chance to win.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:49 am

You need at least 12 to 16 (2 relays) athletes to make sense of it, or you change the rules of the finals altogether by having fewer finalists (only top 6 get in, like RFP). I'd rather see fewer people making the final round. Otherwise all an athlete need to do is make sure not to get DQ, especially since the final format nowadays have little to do with the qualifying format. It is almost like playing a soccer game, and then have penalty shoot outs to determine the winner after a tie. The SP Final never makes sense to me, because the score DOES carry over if you think about it. Finishing third in the qualifying round does not allow you to shoot for the gold, but only to compete for the bronze. This is very different from the other event finals which the athletes are eliminated one by one until two persons competing for the gold.

I would like to see final for FP and AP only to have 6 finalists. 10 shots maximum in which after the 6th shot an athlete will be dropped. That means we can go back to the 10 shot finals, yet maintain the elimination format, and the 10 shot will make a final record relevant.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:17 am

jipe wrote:..... the qualifications become a kind of warm-up, nothing more.

Even if that was true, and I don't believe that it is, what is wrong with giving the shooters their normal "warm-up" and preparation for a final.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:32 am

This topic seems to be drifting (how unusual).

It started off as a discussion of the World Cup Finals but seems to have become a discussion on the general format of finals.

jipe · Post by **jipe** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:01 am

David Levene wrote:
jipe wrote:..... the qualifications become a kind of warm-up, nothing more.
Even if that was true, and I don't believe that it is, what is wrong with giving the shooters their normal "warm-up" and preparation for a final.

What is wrong is that if all athletes participating to the qualification go into the final and he qualification score is not taken into account for the final score, then there is not competition anymore during the qualifications, i.e. less stress, less concentration... it is nothing more than a (necessary) long preparation.

If there are only 10 shots in the final and only 10 shots count for the score (qualification scores not taken into account for the final score) then it becomes a kind of gambling because it can happen to any shooter to make a shot with a couple of tenths less that will almost disqualify him if there are only 10 shots, the winner is then the most lucky shooter, not really the best.

With the 60 shots qualification score taken into account for the final score, it was a matter of being able to remain concentrated during 60 shots combined with the ability to manage the final 10 shots stress.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:39 am

jipe wrote:If there are only 10 shots in the final and only 10 shots count for the score (qualification scores not taken into account for the final score) then it becomes a kind of gambling because it can happen to any shooter to make a shot with a couple of tenths less that will almost disqualify him if there are only 10 shots, the winner is then the most lucky shooter, not really the best.

Which match only has 10 shots in the final?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:33 pm

David Levene wrote:
jipe wrote:If there are only 10 shots in the final and only 10 shots count for the score (qualification scores not taken into account for the final score) then it becomes a kind of gambling because it can happen to any shooter to make a shot with a couple of tenths less that will almost disqualify him if there are only 10 shots, the winner is then the most lucky shooter, not really the best.
Which match only has 10 shots in the final?

Umm, just a reminder...

David Levene wrote:This topic seems to be drifting (how unusual).

It started off as a discussion of the World Cup Finals but seems to have become a discussion on the general format of finals.

Whilst you are of course correct, the first shooter will be eliminated by then in the new finals format.

Rob.