Eric, is the Henrich Vibration Controller considered a tuner? Do you believe it is still legal?
-Larry
Compilation of new rifle rules
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
That's not what I've heard, and since the only way to test seams is in position, a prone shooter will never be in such a position so the test would be impossible to conduct.Grzegorz wrote:Hi,
I discussed during the World Cup in Munich the problem, if restrictions for seams concern also shooters shooting a prone ONLY. The answer is strict: YES.
At the same time...
So, a next problem.... :-)
There is meant to be this new clarification emerging re the rules again so maybe that will enlighten us, I won't though hold my breath...
Rob.
Hi Grzegorz,
at first i thought you mean the seam at his jacked. Surely, he shoots there prone, but if we are pedantic, only one jacked is allowed for all competitions and has to fit the new rules. And yes, i know this new thing with the defined area, but his seam there looks a little bit suspect.
For the problem with the bipod, he cut easy solve this by rotating the legs of his pipod in the horizontal position. But maybe he was not aware this rule, because it is also a new rule, as i know.
From a practical point of view also as a longtime prone shooter i'm really sure, it dos not matter and dos not bring you any just so small advantage, if the legs of the bipod are in the vertical position. OK, if you really lay down and use this pipod as a support, this is an other story. But i'm also sure, if you do that in a competition, you will disqualified faster as you can thing. ;-)
On the other side you are surely right, rules are rules ...
Long time ago i was one of the officials at a bigger traditional competition in Germany, the Bundespokal from the Sauerländer Schützenbund in Dortmund. At this time only the older Standard rifles were allowed. So i said to one shooter, his pipod were not allowed. He was not really amused.
Regards from Germany
Frank
at first i thought you mean the seam at his jacked. Surely, he shoots there prone, but if we are pedantic, only one jacked is allowed for all competitions and has to fit the new rules. And yes, i know this new thing with the defined area, but his seam there looks a little bit suspect.
For the problem with the bipod, he cut easy solve this by rotating the legs of his pipod in the horizontal position. But maybe he was not aware this rule, because it is also a new rule, as i know.
From a practical point of view also as a longtime prone shooter i'm really sure, it dos not matter and dos not bring you any just so small advantage, if the legs of the bipod are in the vertical position. OK, if you really lay down and use this pipod as a support, this is an other story. But i'm also sure, if you do that in a competition, you will disqualified faster as you can thing. ;-)
On the other side you are surely right, rules are rules ...
Long time ago i was one of the officials at a bigger traditional competition in Germany, the Bundespokal from the Sauerländer Schützenbund in Dortmund. At this time only the older Standard rifles were allowed. So i said to one shooter, his pipod were not allowed. He was not really amused.
Regards from Germany
Frank
Oh, I may assure you that Maik Eckhardt knows perfectly that rule :-) Probably just forgot to close them, that's all. Of course the ISSF cannot make any exceptions for bipods, because it would be so called "opening the door", and no one else than Maik Eckhardt would be the first who immediately invents new accessories for MEC - say - a lead bipod :-)
I hope! ;-)FrankD wrote:... OK, if you really lay down and use this pipod as a support, this is an other story. But i'm also sure, if you do that in a competition, you will disqualified faster as you can thing. ;-)
...
Maik is surely an sly old fox, if it comes to our sports, no question. But we have had so many changes this year. Many of them like all the new clothes rules, the new times, the new order in 3P or all the new final rules were really important. So i'm sure, not all of us shooters and also some of us officials were aware about this minor new rule with the weights. It is also true, this bibods were, if not really explicit allowed, yet tolerated in the past. Sure, they were never allowed as a support. ;-)
As i remember, this new rule about the weights was also not in the preliminary paper and most of the discussions were about this mysterious damping system. There is also a new minor rule with the but plate. I'm also sure, not all international shooters know about that.
By the way, have you seen, how many shooters struggle after elimination in the finale with this new safety flag rule?
Private question: Are you in Osijek this days with your team? It seems to me, it's a little bit hot there for shooting, as always at this time.
Regards from Germany
Frank
As i remember, this new rule about the weights was also not in the preliminary paper and most of the discussions were about this mysterious damping system. There is also a new minor rule with the but plate. I'm also sure, not all international shooters know about that.
By the way, have you seen, how many shooters struggle after elimination in the finale with this new safety flag rule?
Private question: Are you in Osijek this days with your team? It seems to me, it's a little bit hot there for shooting, as always at this time.
Regards from Germany
Frank
Unfortunately, I follow EC only via SIUS results page (btw, the way they present results, particularly with decimals, apparently need to be upgraded, it is horrible now... One knows a momentary total but a shot value is a top secret ... :-) )
When I was on EC Odense and WC Munich, I've realized how many "details" in the Rules need to be clarified, yet. It is nothing surprising, of course, with so many changes, such problems are obvious and common. Everywhere. I do not hide this that I am impatiently waiting for any info on the ISSF Web page. I suppose, pretty soon (as soon as EC are over) we could expect new interpretations.
Concerning safety flags. My personal opinion is that in finals (only!) they are completely useless... There are plenty of jury members, range officers carefully observing shooters, so there is no real reason to use the flags on each final stage. As this looks ugly for TV, I bet it will be, sonner or later, changed :-) Will see...
During a competition, as a jury member, I like these flags. If a shooter asks for permission to leave a firing point I do not need to look deeply in a gun chamber (that may distract other shooters on adjacent FP in fact), I see it immediately from a distance. Good idea to me.
When I was on EC Odense and WC Munich, I've realized how many "details" in the Rules need to be clarified, yet. It is nothing surprising, of course, with so many changes, such problems are obvious and common. Everywhere. I do not hide this that I am impatiently waiting for any info on the ISSF Web page. I suppose, pretty soon (as soon as EC are over) we could expect new interpretations.
Concerning safety flags. My personal opinion is that in finals (only!) they are completely useless... There are plenty of jury members, range officers carefully observing shooters, so there is no real reason to use the flags on each final stage. As this looks ugly for TV, I bet it will be, sonner or later, changed :-) Will see...
During a competition, as a jury member, I like these flags. If a shooter asks for permission to leave a firing point I do not need to look deeply in a gun chamber (that may distract other shooters on adjacent FP in fact), I see it immediately from a distance. Good idea to me.
I have seen, they scored the ladies in prone the traditional way, but the female junior shooters in the same competition the new decimal scoring way. Why did they do that? The new ISSF rules are not only valid for the Olympic disciplines. Yes, i know, this new decimal scoring thing in the qualification is only a recommendation but so it is not really stringent.
But others than this small points we have to be fair here. The information way these days in our sport is much better than it was in the past. Not so long ago you needed directly on the range to get the results and rankings or you had to wait sometimes some weeks or longer.
Safety flags: Here in Germany this safety flag thing was 'invented' after one, i repeat, one deadly accident in Munich after 30 years German champion chips, Bavarian champion chips and so on and many big international competitions there and it is not really clear for me, if this accident could prevented there with this flags.
My observation after some years is, it doesn't really make our ever really save sport saver, but it partly compensates good safety behavior from some shooters. I have seen some shooters after that new rule, who targeted with their gun at other people. Not really cognizant, but they did it. Asked about that behavior, they said, their gun were save because of the flag. Sure, but what if they sometime forgot to reload their gun and also forget the flag after training or so? People do sometimes stupid things, especially after some routine. Then it is much more important if the elementary safety rules work. This means, a gun has always seen as loaded, never targeting at people or in an unsafe direction, never put the finger on the trigger before really ready to shoot and at least, looking for a free and clear target before shoot.
But because people sometimes do mistakes, i agree with you using this flags on the range in normal competition or training. Although it is strictly forbidden, some shooters put sometimes their loaded guns on the railing or so and then it is easier to see. But if you take a closer look as a range officer, you can see this also without this flags at most of our weapons. And if you not look, the flag doesn't help. There is always the possibility a shooter (under stress) ignores this rule and put his loaded gun on the railing. So you have always take a closer look.
My opinion here is we have to make a consideration at this point. On one side the better seeing a potential loaded gun, on the other side this really bad compensating behavior. This accident in Munich was not directly on the range or fire line. Someone, a trainer or helper opened the case of a small bore rifle and pulled the trigger for testing the state of loading, not looking for a free direction in front of the rifle. He did surely some horrible elementary mistakes, but i'm not sure here, if a flag would have prevent this accident. This rifle was against all rules (and our law) loaded. Pulling the trigger for testing was the next big mistake and not looking for a free direction the last.
On the long run for me it is better to drill the elementary safety rules. We can't buy real safety through things. Safety is always a mind thing. So the right mind and behavior is much more important then such things like safety flags. And at least, nothing is really one hundred percent safe, but our sport was ever one of the safest sports in the world, besides all of our weapons.
And for me there is yet an other point. Our sports is this days also a political thing. There are so many antis out, who would at best totally prohibit our beloved sport, at least our fire weapons. If we always make more concessions at this point, i'm afraid, some day we will lost all of our rights. These antis never give up and they use many strategies.
Not to understand me wrong here, safety is important. But there is also the (good old) principle of proportionality. Our Sport was ever really safe. But if we go now so often still over this principle, i'm sure, we destroy our sport in the long run. You know about this horrible ideas about a kind of shooting simulation with light or laser things? Here in Germany we have jet some strong believers of this crazy idea. I'm sure, Mr. Coubertin would rotate in his tomb, if he could see this Modern Pentathlon.
Only my 2 cents, as ever.
Regards from Germany
Frank
But others than this small points we have to be fair here. The information way these days in our sport is much better than it was in the past. Not so long ago you needed directly on the range to get the results and rankings or you had to wait sometimes some weeks or longer.
Safety flags: Here in Germany this safety flag thing was 'invented' after one, i repeat, one deadly accident in Munich after 30 years German champion chips, Bavarian champion chips and so on and many big international competitions there and it is not really clear for me, if this accident could prevented there with this flags.
My observation after some years is, it doesn't really make our ever really save sport saver, but it partly compensates good safety behavior from some shooters. I have seen some shooters after that new rule, who targeted with their gun at other people. Not really cognizant, but they did it. Asked about that behavior, they said, their gun were save because of the flag. Sure, but what if they sometime forgot to reload their gun and also forget the flag after training or so? People do sometimes stupid things, especially after some routine. Then it is much more important if the elementary safety rules work. This means, a gun has always seen as loaded, never targeting at people or in an unsafe direction, never put the finger on the trigger before really ready to shoot and at least, looking for a free and clear target before shoot.
But because people sometimes do mistakes, i agree with you using this flags on the range in normal competition or training. Although it is strictly forbidden, some shooters put sometimes their loaded guns on the railing or so and then it is easier to see. But if you take a closer look as a range officer, you can see this also without this flags at most of our weapons. And if you not look, the flag doesn't help. There is always the possibility a shooter (under stress) ignores this rule and put his loaded gun on the railing. So you have always take a closer look.
My opinion here is we have to make a consideration at this point. On one side the better seeing a potential loaded gun, on the other side this really bad compensating behavior. This accident in Munich was not directly on the range or fire line. Someone, a trainer or helper opened the case of a small bore rifle and pulled the trigger for testing the state of loading, not looking for a free direction in front of the rifle. He did surely some horrible elementary mistakes, but i'm not sure here, if a flag would have prevent this accident. This rifle was against all rules (and our law) loaded. Pulling the trigger for testing was the next big mistake and not looking for a free direction the last.
On the long run for me it is better to drill the elementary safety rules. We can't buy real safety through things. Safety is always a mind thing. So the right mind and behavior is much more important then such things like safety flags. And at least, nothing is really one hundred percent safe, but our sport was ever one of the safest sports in the world, besides all of our weapons.
And for me there is yet an other point. Our sports is this days also a political thing. There are so many antis out, who would at best totally prohibit our beloved sport, at least our fire weapons. If we always make more concessions at this point, i'm afraid, some day we will lost all of our rights. These antis never give up and they use many strategies.
Not to understand me wrong here, safety is important. But there is also the (good old) principle of proportionality. Our Sport was ever really safe. But if we go now so often still over this principle, i'm sure, we destroy our sport in the long run. You know about this horrible ideas about a kind of shooting simulation with light or laser things? Here in Germany we have jet some strong believers of this crazy idea. I'm sure, Mr. Coubertin would rotate in his tomb, if he could see this Modern Pentathlon.
Only my 2 cents, as ever.
Regards from Germany
Frank
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
On the results sheets I have seen they didn't. The female junior prone was scored full ring, not decimal.FrankD wrote:I have seen, they scored the ladies in prone the traditional way, but the female junior shooters in the same competition the new decimal scoring way. Why did they do that?
ISSF rule 6.3.4b only talks about Air Rifle Men, Air Rifle Women and Prone Men. At the moment Prone Women should always be scored full ring.FrankD wrote:The new ISSF rules are not only valid for the Olympic disciplines.
Hi David,
thank you for your hints.
But if i'm not totally blind, there was first a ranking list female junior prone with decimal scoring on the ech2013 site. So it was surely only some kind of a preliminary results list.
You are also right with this decimal scoring thing. I have ignored some details In the circular explanation paper from the ISSF. The headline there is "Decimal Scoring for 10m Air Rifle and 50m Prone Rifle". So i thought ... . But surely, it is always better, to read the hole text, as we see here. ;-)
By the way, i'm general a little bit sceptical about this decimal scoring thing. As i wrote in an other posting here, i'm not sure, if it is really the better and fairer way because of the big statistical influence of our ammo.The result is not only depended from the shooters skills. A perfect shoot can be a 10.9 but also a 10.5 with a good barrel and ammo. For me this means there is now too much luck in the game. Are the shooters in the finale now really the better shooters at this day or had they only a little bit more luck this time?
But this is an other point to discuss.
Regards from Germany
Frank
thank you for your hints.
But if i'm not totally blind, there was first a ranking list female junior prone with decimal scoring on the ech2013 site. So it was surely only some kind of a preliminary results list.
You are also right with this decimal scoring thing. I have ignored some details In the circular explanation paper from the ISSF. The headline there is "Decimal Scoring for 10m Air Rifle and 50m Prone Rifle". So i thought ... . But surely, it is always better, to read the hole text, as we see here. ;-)
By the way, i'm general a little bit sceptical about this decimal scoring thing. As i wrote in an other posting here, i'm not sure, if it is really the better and fairer way because of the big statistical influence of our ammo.The result is not only depended from the shooters skills. A perfect shoot can be a 10.9 but also a 10.5 with a good barrel and ammo. For me this means there is now too much luck in the game. Are the shooters in the finale now really the better shooters at this day or had they only a little bit more luck this time?
But this is an other point to discuss.
Regards from Germany
Frank
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
You get exactly the same problem with full ring scoring where, using your example, a 10.3 with everything perfect could score a 9.9, giving a 9 instead of a 10.FrankD wrote:By the way, i'm general a little bit sceptical about this decimal scoring thing. As i wrote in an other posting here, i'm not sure, if it is really the better and fairer way because of the big statistical influence of our ammo.The result is not only depended from the shooters skills. A perfect shoot can be a 10.9 but also a 10.5 with a good barrel and ammo. For me this means there is now too much luck in the game.
That's a 10% penalty on full ring scoring but less than a 4%penalty on decimal scoring.
The only thing fixed on a target is the very centre. The size of the scoring rings is purely arbitrary or historical. There's nothing magical about them.
Hi David,
i did not wrote about any magical thing with the rings and numbers.
I explained the (my) problem with this new decimal scoring over the hole match especially in a small bore prone match in greater detail in the third posting of the following thread.
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=40721
And sorry, i do not really understand your sentence with this percent penalty thing, but maybe i'm only not smart enough for that. I'm only a long time engineer. ;-)
By the way, at this time it seems to me not many of us shooters have a problem with this new decimal scoring the hole match, so all may be fine. Many shooters at this time believe in fact, it is yet better and fairer. But most people also have no real clue if it comes to statistical processes and they believe too much in digital numbers and at least having no problem doesn't never mean, there is in reality also no problem.
Regards from Germany
Frank
i did not wrote about any magical thing with the rings and numbers.
I explained the (my) problem with this new decimal scoring over the hole match especially in a small bore prone match in greater detail in the third posting of the following thread.
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=40721
And sorry, i do not really understand your sentence with this percent penalty thing, but maybe i'm only not smart enough for that. I'm only a long time engineer. ;-)
By the way, at this time it seems to me not many of us shooters have a problem with this new decimal scoring the hole match, so all may be fine. Many shooters at this time believe in fact, it is yet better and fairer. But most people also have no real clue if it comes to statistical processes and they believe too much in digital numbers and at least having no problem doesn't never mean, there is in reality also no problem.
Regards from Germany
Frank
As you are engineer, just look at this problem from a technical point of view. Scoring in decimals is simply a more accurate way of measurment. That's all. From statistical point of view, the old system was more hazardous. For sure. Another question is, if it is good to erase a spark of luck from shooting. I would say... balancing pro and cons, I am pro. :-)